Kriegsmarine UBoot badge

[genoa41]

Hi Gordon

I am puzzled about this badge . F&B , Mayer , .... . Can you help me ?

many thanks

giorgio

[genoa41]

Hi Gordon

I am puzzled about this badge . F&B , Mayer , .... . Can you help me ?

many thanks

giorgio

[John R]

Well, you did not address your query to the forum, but let me throw in my opinion.

I do not know if we have seen this badge before but it does look period. If I may venture a guess--I would exclude L/56 since even in zinc, it had a die flaw. I also would exclude Mayer in zinc since we know what that looks like. Based on the segmented swaz, then if we had to associate it with a maker, and it is pure speculation I believe, I would go with an interesting example of a zinc Zimmerman.

John

Edited November 19, 2008 by John Robinson

[Gordon Williamson]

Well, we know three definitely identified manufacturers who used this design ( Schickle, Zimmermann and Mayer) but that doesn't mean that there could not have been others not yet identified who might also have used this design.

Looking at the three manufacturers that we do know however, -

Mayer used this design for their Tombak badge, but used a different design for their zink badges. BUT, we cannot know for sure that they never used the original tooling for some zinkers before switching to the other design.

Zimmermann used this design on their Tombak badge but with a fully segmented ( as opposed to only three arms voided) Swastika. Hard to be certain on this one but it rather looks like only three arms are voided. HOWEVER, we can't be 100% certain that Zimmermann didn't have only three arms voided on the more brittle (and weaker) zink badge.

Schickle used this design. The Tombak badge usually had a distinctive form of hinge and a needle pin, BUT I have also seen a Schickle badge with a flat type pin (as used on the EK1) with an L/15 mark. So, if Schickle used more than one type of pin, we can't rule out Schickle either.

So, really, I don't think we can absolutely rule out ANY of the three known makers who used this design.

What we can be sure of though is that it is 100% NOT an F&B.

[nesredep]

Well, we know three definitely identified manufacturers who used this design ( Schickle, Zimmermann and Mayer) but that doesn't mean that there could not have been others not yet identified who might also have used this design.

Looking at the three manufacturers that we do know however, -

Mayer used this design for their Tombak badge, but used a different design for their zink badges. BUT, we cannot know for sure that they never used the original tooling for some zinkers before switching to the other design.

Zimmermann used this design on their Tombak badge but with a fully segmented ( as opposed to only three arms voided) Swastika. Hard to be certain on this one but it rather looks like only three arms are voided. HOWEVER, we can't be 100% certain that Zimmermann didn't have only three arms voided on the more brittle (and weaker) zink badge.

Schickle used this design. The Tombak badge usually had a distinctive form of hinge and a needle pin, BUT I have also seen a Schickle badge with a flat type pin (as used on the EK1) with an L/15 mark. So, if Schickle used more than one type of pin, we can't rule out Schickle either.

So, really, I don't think we can absolutely rule out ANY of the three known makers who used this design.

What we can be sure of though is that it is 100% NOT an F&B.

Hello!

Gordon

Very interesting comment.I learned a lot.

All the best

Nesredep

[Martin W]

Gordon,

just my opinion but i think i am inclinded to agree with your Mayer theory.Maybe they did continue to use the "tombak" dies before changing the design?

Regards,Martin.

[Gordon Williamson]

Martin,

I tend to agree. Although I wouldn't absolutely rule any of the potential makers out, Schickle is unlikely as they probably never made the transition from Tombak to Zinc before going out of business.

Of the remaining two, I would lean more towards Mayer than Zimmermann simply because of the swastika.

We know that Mayer are connected to two sets of tooling, but can't possibly say with certainty that the earlier design was never used for Zinc badges.

Given that they already used the early design, why the change ? Perhaps they used the early design for Zinc and the die became damaged forcing a change to a new set of tooling.

In reality we don't even know if the firm "owned" the dies for the Tombak or Zinc versions. They may well have simply contracted out the die stamping worn, bought in the planchettes and did their own finishing. Who knows ?

I think with such unmarked badges the best we will often be able to do is describe it as a "type". so for me it is perfectly reasonable to refer to this one as a Mayer-type in Zinc.

[genoa41]

Dear Gordon

I wellcome your explanations

The possible attributions shrink to one . However the employment of an existing die to produce zinc badges doesn't rule out Zimmermann . According to your book Zimmermann produced zinc badges (I have never seen a specimen).

But is possible to make use of the same die for two materials (bronze and zinc) ? The two materials have different metallurgic property . Was the technology of the time in working order to die indifferently the two materials ? If that's the case I don't explaine myself the reason why Mayer has replaced the dies.

I have not a ready answer

yours sincerely

giorgio

[John R]

Giorgio,

My tilt to Zimmerman was on the assumption that all 4 arms of the swaz were cutout. I am not sure looking at your image if it is 4 or 3. Still, even if it is 3, they might have not cutout the 4th (top) leg for support due to the new material.

No mater what it is a guess on this particular example.

There seems to be no reason, if I am reading your question correctly, that the same die could not be used for the tombak and zinc although the reverse setups would have to be different.

John

[genoa41]

Giorgio,

My tilt to Zimmerman was on the assumption that all 4 arms of the swaz were cutout. I am not sure looking at your image if it is 4 or 3. Still, even if it is 3, they might have not cutout the 4th (top) leg for support due to the new material.

No mater what it is a guess on this particular example.

There seems to be no reason, if I am reading your question correctly, that the same die could not be used for the tombak and zinc although the reverse setups would have to be different.

John

John

The badge is very intriguing .

The sw is not completely segmented but the deck gun remind Zimmermann .

IMO the possible attribution to a specific maker comes only from guesses ; we have not a definite interpretation .

As usual Gordon tackles the problem in a way very interesting, of course the findings comes from the premises . The chosen methodology detects the solution more probable .

Just now I don't see other way out

giorgio