Gordon Craig Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 (edited) The KIV?L? SZAKASZ is one of the rarest badges of the HUPR period. Other than the one in the Military Museum I have never seen one. Last Tuesday at the Coin and Stamp show I came close to buying a copy of one of these badges. Thanks to one of our newest forum members cimbineus I was saved from making that mistake. I should have realized the problems with the badge myself but the rarity of the thing made me lose my sanity for a little while! I have posted a line drawing of one below which is all that I have at the moment. The main part of the flag is a dark red enamel. The enameled diamond shapes around the outside are the Hungarian national colours as used on all military flags. The wreath that curls up from the bottom around one side is gold. The lettering is black on a white background. In the line drawing you will see the HUPR State crest of 1948. The HUPR State crest on the badge I saw was the 1957 type. I should have realized as soon as I saw the badge that it was a copy as this badeg never existed with that crest.The badge itself was well made and the enamel was very good except for one small dimple which was quite noticable. So if you see one, admire and remember who has it for sale. They may even know that it is a fake!Regards,Gordon Edited December 12, 2008 by Gordon Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 Here is a foto of one of these badges being pinned on a uniform in the location they were worn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsolt Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Hi, Gordon!A photo from the "KIV?L? SZAKASZ" badge (original): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 Zsolt,Thanks for the photo. Nice to have you back with us again. I see I need to change my impression of what the banner and wording look like. Really nice to see that these do exist and that someday I may have the chance to add one of these to my collection as well.Regards,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 Zsolt,Please post a picture of the back of the badge.Regards,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 (edited) Oh How Wonderful...... Any chance of getting a photo next time? Edited December 13, 2008 by hunyadi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsolt Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 The back of the badge (one from the prongs is missing): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted December 14, 2008 Author Share Posted December 14, 2008 Zsolt,Thanks for posting both the front and the back of this super rare badge.Regards,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Hi all, Here is some more information on that badge. The fake was a good quality enamelled badge, a shiny one. The '57 coat of arms was fixed not on the surface of the badge, like it is on the original one, but it was fixed with a through-going rivet, like it is on "KIV?L? SZOLG?LAT?RT ?RDEMREND". The size of the crest was also something similar to the size of that. Otherwise, the back was flat. Regards, cimbineus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted December 15, 2008 Author Share Posted December 15, 2008 cimbineus,Thanks for filling in some more details on the fake badge. I had forgotten some of the finer points.Regards,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsolt Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Gordon, Cimbineus !In my opinion not the badge is fake, only the HUPR State crest 1949 was changed to te State crest 1957. The flat back, and the riveted crest is a existing variation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Gordon, Cimbineus !In my opinion not the badge is fake, only the HUPR State crest 1949 was changed to te State crest 1957. The flat back, and the riveted crest is a existing variation. Hi Zsolt, Yes, this was my first guess as well. But when I examined the badge more carefully, I changed my mind. The reason is simple: I think it is close to impossible to drill the enamelled part through without damaging the badge itself. And there was a definite whole in the middle of the banner going through the badge with the '57 crest's rivet in it. And, as I mentioned earlier, the badge itself was unrealistically shiny. Regards, cimbineus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Drill Press + Desire for Financial Gain = Faked Badge. In reality its not that hard to drill out the 1957 Crest with a drill press and some patience and not damage the badge. Its also equally easy to push out the crest on a pre 56' order or medal and replace it. What is perhaps more tragic is that the 1957 version is perhaps more rare as they were only produced for one year before being lost in Kadarization... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted December 15, 2008 Author Share Posted December 15, 2008 Gentlemen,I would say the badge in question was of recent manufacture. It did not look anything like the badge Zsolt posted a picture of except for shape. Very shiny gold and very shiny enamel with one small hole where the enamel was not applied properly. If the vendor is there tomorrow I will see if I can get a picture of the badge.Regards,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Drill Press + Desire for Financial Gain = Faked Badge. In reality its not that hard to drill out the 1957 Crest with a drill press and some patience and not damage the badge. Its also equally easy to push out the crest on a pre 56' order or medal and replace it. What is perhaps more tragic is that the 1957 version is perhaps more rare as they were only produced for one year before being lost in Kadarization...Hi Gents, Let me try again, because there must be some misunderstanding here. There is no hole in the original badge's banner. The '49 Crest fixed on the surface of the banner, so, not the '49 Crest was drilled out and replaced with the '57 Crest, but the enamelled banner had a hole in the very middle which is quite impossible to make, unless it is made originally before enamelling, I think. (To my best knowledge there was no '57 version of this badge at all. At least, I have never heard about it.)Regards,cimbineus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 This is the 1957 version: It would be easy enough to knock off the 1957 crest and drill a hole through enamel or even metal to get the same desired affect. With a high speed drill and drill bit I can cut a hole through enamel or glass if I am careful enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted December 16, 2008 Author Share Posted December 16, 2008 Charles,From the photo of the back of the badge, there appears to be a rivet holding the state crest to the one in your picture. The badge in the picture that you posted looks to be about the same age as the one Zsolt posted a picture of. I may have to buy this badge today, it is not very expensive which is another clue to authenticity, just to satisfy myself as to whether there actually was a 1957 state crest issue of this badge. Cimbineus has a lot more experience in this area than I have and I would have thought that if one existed he would know of it. However, one must keep an open mind in any collecting field. New things turn up every day. Which unfortunately, fakers take advantage of. Should be an interesting afternoon!Regards,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 This is the 1957 version: It would be easy enough to knock off the 1957 crest and drill a hole through enamel or even metal to get the same desired affect. With a high speed drill and drill bit I can cut a hole through enamel or glass if I am careful enough...Thanks for the picture. Yes, I agree, it is quite possible to take off any Crest from the middle and drill a hole through, since the middle of the banner is not covered by glass, it is just the basic metal, a metal "disc". However, I have never met or heard about this version of '57, but like Gordon says, anything is possible in the field of phaleristics. Regards,cimbineus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Gordon - Its not a rivet at all, but a raised section like Zsolts example where the crest is attached to - above the red enamel. There are some "crimps" to this raised section wich may be a variant or a process change. According to the "Magyar Nephasereg Jelvenyei 1945-1970" (Where you got the hand drawing of the badge #111 in my issue) The article states that the badge was instituted in 1954. It mentions that the badge was no longer awarded after 1957. From what many have informed me (reputable chaps at the coin show) this badge exists. I secured me example from the "old man", so you can judge from there I guess... in reality I would much rather have a 1949 version for my book.... if anyone out there wants to send me a good scan of one that I could use..... :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zsolt Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Theoretically would have existed. The wearing of the "kiv?l?" badges forbidden only in 1958. Maybe manufactured, but not awarded pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted December 16, 2008 Author Share Posted December 16, 2008 Thanks for the input everyone. Always interesting to trace these things to some sort of conclusion. So it would appear that the badge did exist with the 1957 crest as well as the 1949 crest and as Zsolt says, probably not awarded. Interesting the way things are awarded. The book that you and I have Charles says "not awarded after 1957" and Zsolt indicates it was "forbidden to wear in only 1958". Two ways of saying the same thing that could really make a big difference in researching a badge. Interesting the way you say the crest was mounted on the badge Charles. The same way the later KIV?L? DOLGOZ? badges were. Thanks for the dialog guys.Regards,Gordn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 Well gents, there was no badge to photgraph or to buy at the show on Tuesday. Perhaps next week?Regards,Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 :banger: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesredep Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Hello!Interesting tread. All the bestNesredep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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