German State bravery medals without EK?

[IrishGunner]

This is probably a simple question; but as a newbie to collecting groups and ribbon bars, I have a simple question...

I often see groups/ribbon bars together with the EK and a German State bravery decoration (such as the Wuerttemberg Merit Medal, Bavaria Merit Cross, or Baden Medal).

However, how common would be a group and/or ribbon bar with only the State decoration and no EK?

(Again, forgive the newbie question...)

[Naxos]

Not that uncommon

Edited February 2, 2009 by Naxos

[Ulsterman]

Not uncommon -

also depends upon the state. Some state automatically awarded you their medal if you got the EK2.

I have the complete awards roster for a Bavarian artillery battery (through April, 1919) and of @650 men who served/rotated through the unit, about 70% got something.

However, only about 20% got a Bavarian medal only.

The officers of course ALL got EK2s and BMVOxs-except the veterinarian (who got nothing) and the chaplain, who got only the BMVOx.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

To echo-- quite common for someone only at the front late in the war, or wounded and disabled from further frontline service earlier-- especially at the lowest rank levels.

[Chip]

Hardy,

Is the man in your photo from the Saxon IR 104? How about a close-up of the shoulder strap? From what I can see, it looks like this....

[Naxos]

Hardy,

Is the man in your photo from the Saxon IR 104? How about a close-up of the shoulder strap? From what I can see, it looks like this....

Chip you are right, good eyes! - I will post a close-up

[IrishGunner]

Thanks everyone! Especially for the photos; I will have to start trolling photos myself for examples.

Ulsterman - "Bavarian artillery" - Nice and interesting info on one battery. Someday I just might put Bav arty as a sub-focus area.

[dante]

Thanks everyone! Especially for the photos; I will have to start trolling photos myself for examples.

Ulsterman - "Bavarian artillery" - Nice and interesting info on one battery. Someday I just might put Bav arty as a sub-focus area.

Here is a couple of mine..

[scottplen]

heres one of mine !!! a Guy with a rare lippe war merit medal only about 1900 or so awarded !!!!

most likely wounded !

[Ulsterman]

Thanks everyone! Especially for the photos; I will have to start trolling photos myself for examples.

Ulsterman - "Bavarian artillery" - Nice and interesting information on one battery. Someday I just might put Bav arty as a sub-focus area.

My bad-I looked at the book again-1st battery 5th Bay. Fussart.

ALL officers got a Bavarian award and an EK2. I misread the transfer dates.

It was very rare not to get an EK2 if one had a BMVK3x. There are about a half dozen enlisted cases where men got a Bav. medal only and entered service in 1914/15 and served right through to 11/1918. The VAST majority of men got transferred out into other units and received at least one medal, usually the EK2. Once the men were transferred to another unit, additional awards are unknown, but numbers alone would argue somewhat against it, as there were @ 350,000 BMVKxs awarded and @ 1 million EK2s to the Bavarian army, a ratio of @1:3 during the war.

Of course a number died before they could earn an additional medal.

Pity poor Kanonier Johan Walter List#199 who entered the battery on 8.5.1914 and stayed with the unit throughout the war, only receiving his solitary EK2 on 6.23.1918.

There seems to be no correlation at all between awards of EKs and Bavarian medals by date. that is, medals were not earned and then another followed on a few months later in due course. Almost all awards are widely scattered by date, inferring separate acts of bravery/merit.

There were a number of "mass award" dates, esp. for the Bavarian medals, usually about a month after a significant battle (and a number of deaths/wounds noted).

Lastly, interestingly, there are a number of posthumous EK awards! Kanonier Muller of Liebsthal, for example, entered the battery on Nov. 20, 1916, earned his BavMVK3x on May 5, 1917 and was KIA on April 13, 1918 when he was shot through his left upper arm and his back by artillery shrapnel. His EK2 was awarded on April 17, 1918.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Ulsterman

[IrishGunner]

Thanks Ulsterman

This insight into one unit certainly helps put into perspective award combinations.

[Ladis]

My bavarian bar:

[Ladis]

And saxon One:

[IrishGunner]

My bavarian bar:

Great Bavarian - this is what I hope to find. The one with the Hindenburg Cross is nice, but I would really like to get my hands on a State pure one like this Bavarian. Thanks for sharing the photo.

[Naxos]

Hardy,

Is the man in your photo from the Saxon IR 104? How about a close-up of the shoulder strap? From what I can see, it looks like this....

Chip here is a close-up - IR104 No name with the photo but dated October 1918

And the enlargement also reveals a mistake - I was wrong, I thought he had no EK2.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Naxos

[Guest Rick Research]

Saxon career NCO (top) went through the entire First War without getting an EK2, entered the civil service-- and was decorated as a noncombatant in the Second:

Bavarian (lower left) was doing something that got him a Sudeten Annexation Medal in 1938 or 1939. Baden singleton (bottom right).

[Guest Rick Research]

That is MY work, stolen from me, posted there contrary to my wishes.

I have BEGUN redoing an expanded and improved versiont in the ONLY place it is AUTHORIZED-- here at GMIC

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?autocom=galler...q=sc&cat=23

but have been distracted the last several years by the monumental shared task of publishing German WW1 awards rolls. That has taken priority.

I am "the ribbon bar man." HERE. :cheers: