Turkey Which is the (exact) medal awarded to an Italian ?

[lilo]

Hello All,

I wonder if anyone can help me in correctly identifying what is the Ottoman medal the Italian General of the CARABINIERI, Cosma MANERA (1876-1958), received in 1908.

In his papers it is stated that he received the (testually) :

- Ottoman Medal 'SEGA KAT' (for Valour) 1908.

I tried to identify what exactly was the Ottoman medal received by General Manera but till now have found nothing.

Can you please tell me what is this medal ?

If you are able to exactly identify this medal, I please you to also let me know which is the correct ribbon (i.e. which are the colours) from which it is suspended. (better if possible - it should be to post a colour photo).

Many Thanks in advance for your help

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited February 21, 2009 by lilo

[demir]

Hello All,

I wonder if anyone can help me in correctly identifying what is the Ottoman medal the Italian General of the CARABINIERI, Cosma MANERA (1876-1958), received in 1908.

In his papers it is stated that he received the (testually) :

- Ottoman Medal 'SEGA KAT' (for Valour) 1908.

I tried to identify what exactly was the Ottoman medal received by General Manera but till now have found nothing.

Can you please tell me what is this medal ?

If you are able to exactly identify this medal, I please you to also let me know which is the correct ribbon (i.e. which are the colours) from which it is suspended. (better if possible - it should be to post a colour photo).

Many Thanks in advance for your help

Best Regards

Lilo

Hello,

It may be LIYAKAT medal. (If you have a picture it will be easier to identify.) The date on it is 1308 (1890). The date on the paper is showing the date of the document. The ribbon is red with green lines at the sides.

Best wishes

demir

[lilo]

Hello,

It may be LIYAKAT medal. (If you have a picture it will be easier to identify.) The date on it is 1308 (1890). The date on the paper is showing the date of the document. The ribbon is red with green lines at the sides.

Best wishes

demir

Hi Demir,

Many thanks for your guess.

Please can you clarify :

1) because you think it is Liyakat medal and not the IMTIYAZ MEDAL ?

May be because the final part of the word 'KAT' coincide with that of the medal mentioned on the papers of Gen. Manera or what else ?

2) Which is more probable that He received the Gold or the Silver issue ? (it is not specified in the papers).

3) The date on the papers of the General for this medal is '1908' and this is the date when He received the medal.

4) Last if it can be of any importance, General Manera also received the Turkish Order of Medejie, Commander, in October 1908 on the same year of the award of the so called 'SEGA KAT' medal so I think that He received both contestually.

Awaiting to hear your (and others) comments

Best Regards

Lilo

[avsaribar]

Dear Lilo ,

As an answer , I replied your Personal Messege , in your box.

Regards,

Avsar Ibar

http://www.turkishmedals.com

[avsaribar]

I bealive , it is a Gold Liyakat Medal awarded for the General Manera.

Date 1908 is ok , altough it was founded in 1890 (1308) by Sultan Abdulhamid (Ruled the Empire between 1876 to 1909) , it was awarded till the end of Ottoman Empire.

All the Best ,

Avsar

[lilo]

I bealive , it is a Gold Liyakat Medal awarded for the General Manera.

Date 1908 is ok , altough it was founded in 1890 (1308) by Sultan Abdulhamid (Ruled the Empire between 1876 to 1909) , it was awarded till the end of Ottoman Empire.

All the Best ,

Avsar

Hello Avsar,

Many thanks for your guess but can you explain because you think He received the Liyakat medal and not the IMTIYAZ MEDAL ?

Many thanks

Lilo

Edited February 22, 2009 by lilo

[Ed_Haynes]

I suspect the Italians were trying to represent, however inaccurately and clumsily, the name of the medal? Why do you think this would NOT have been the case?

[lilo]

I suspect the Italians were trying to represent, however inaccurately and clumsily, the name of the medal? Why do you think this would NOT have been the case?

Hi Ed,

I haven't said that what was transcribed in the General's papers could not be erroneously reported by the clerk (although there is a large difference in spelling between 'Sega Kat' and 'Liyakat') but only asked if the two forum members could explain why they think that the medal received by the General was the Liyakat medal and not the IMTIYAZ MEDAL ?

Regards

Lilo

Edited February 22, 2009 by lilo

[demir]

Hello,

I deducted LIYAKAT from the word SEGA KAT.

It may be TARZ-I CEDID BUYUK IMTIYAZ because it was also known as:

"SADAKAT ve SECAAT MADALYASI" ( awarded for Loyalty, Valor and Heroism - Medal).

Still there is a spelling difference. In order to idendify it we have to see the picture.

The color of the ribbon of Imtiyaz is half green half red.

On the other hand,

From the Carbinieri web page I found out that;

Between 1897 and 1906 the Force was present on the island of Crete to maintain public order, to oversee the conflict between the Christian population against the Ottoman Empire, and to organize a local, efficient, impartial police force modelled on the Carabinieri structure.

Carabinieri Officers also organized a police force for the Ottoman Government in Macedonia from 1904 to 1911.

Gen. Cosma Manera was still a Major in 1917 (http://www.carabinieri.it/Internet/Multilingua/EN/MissionAbroad/ - para: 10 ) so he might have been a Lieutenant or a Captain during 1908. (Is he the same person because you mentioned Generals papers). My point is; if he was a Lt. or Cpt. most probably it was a Liyakat rather then Imtiyaz.

Best wishes

demir

[lilo]

Hello Demir,

You should pardon me but I have made a great confusion on the matter, now !

Unfortunately in the 2 photos I have of Gen. Manera wearing his awards, He clearly don't wear the Ottoman medal but only the Turkish, Order of Medjie at his neck.

I have understood that it can be of great help to you for correctly identify what was the Ottoman medal 'Sega Kat' General Manera received in 1908, to describe exactly what rank Manera had and what He did in the period 1899-1911 :

"""In 1899 Gen. Cosma Manera went to Crete as a Lieutenant of the 2? Battalion / 93? Infantry.

At the end of the 1904 He was sent in Macedonia, as member of the Italian Mission to organize a local police force. He came back to Italy from Macedonia on 5th August, 1908. He became Captain in 1911."""

My questions

1) Again, bearing in mind that till 1911 He was a Lieutenant, what is more probable that he received as Ottoman medal : the Liyakat medal or the IMTIYAZ MEDAL ?

2) If I have well understood there was a difference in awarding the two medals above mentioned, pending the rank held by the person at the time of the award, isn't it ?

If yes, what between the Liyakat medal and the IMTIYAZ MEDAL was the medal awarded to a person that held the rank of Lieutenant at the time of the award ?

3) Which is more probable that General Manera received : the Gold or the Silver issue ? (it is not specified in the papers).

I apologise if I ask you to repeat what is your thinking about the medal awarded to Manera but, as I already have told above, I made a great confusion.

Awaiting to hear from you again

Thanks for your patience

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited February 24, 2009 by lilo

[demir]

Hello Demir,

You should pardon me but I have made a great confusion on the matter, now !

Unfortunately in the 2 photos I have of Gen. Manera wearing his awards, He clearly don't wear the Ottoman medal but only the Turkish, Order of Medjie at his neck.

I have understood that it can be of great help to you for correctly identify what was the Ottoman medal 'Sega Kat' General Manera received in 1908, to describe exactly what rank Manera had and what He did in the period 1899-1911 :

"""In 1899 Gen. Cosma Manera went to Crete as a Lieutenant of the 2? Battalion / 93? Infantry.

At the end of the 1904 He was sent in Macedonia, as member of the Italian Mission to organize a local police force. He came back to Italy from Macedonia on 5th August, 1908. He became Captain in 1911."""

My questions

1) Again, bearing in mind that till 1911 He was a Lieutenant, what is more probable that he received as Ottoman medal : the Liyakat medal or the IMTIYAZ MEDAL ?

2) If I have well understood there was a difference in awarding the two medals above mentioned, pending the rank held by the person at the time of the award, isn't it ?

If yes, what between the Liyakat medal and the IMTIYAZ MEDAL was the medal awarded to a person that held the rank of Lieutenant at the time of the award ?

3) Which is more probable that General Manera received : the Gold or the Silver issue ? (it is not specified in the papers).

I apologise if I ask you to repeat what is your thinking about the medal awarded to Manera but, as I already have told above, I made a great confusion.

Awaiting to hear from you again

Thanks for your patience

Best Regards

Lilo

Hi,

Sorry,

Above is the all I could say.

Best wishes

demir