Greece - What is a 'Greek, Distinguished Service medal' ?

[lilo]

Hi All,

I'm trying to identify what exactly is the Greek award given to : Francis Douglas BAKER (1884-1958).

On Saturday 16 August 2008, there was the C J MEDALS AUCTION 12. Between the various Lots there was an interesting one whose entry I report below :

Quote

CBE, MC GALLIPOLI DOUBLE MID, FOREIGN ORDER, INTELLIGENCE GROUP TO LATER EGYPTIAN POLICE COMMANDANT consisting of CBE Military, MC beautifully period chisel engraved 2 LT F. D. BAKER GALLIPOLI 1915, 1914-15 Star name erased unreadable add in, BWM and Victory with MID both impressed LIEUT. F. D. BAKER and Commander of the Crown of Italy (LG 29/11/19). Also awarded Order of the Nile 3rd class for military service, and the Order of Ismail 3rd class, Commander Crown of Roumania, Egyptian Gold Medaille de Devoir, Afghan Order of Astaur 2nd class and Iranian (Persia) Order of Homayoun 3rd class for post war service.

Francis Douglas Baker was serving as a 2 Lieutenant with the Royal First Devons who upon arriving at Gallipoli peninsula on 8 October 1915 took their place in the fighting line at Suvla Bay. His actions earned him a military cross (LG 3/6/16). To Egyptian Expeditionary Force in March 1916, promotion to Lieutenant in April and MID LG 13/7/1916 ? believe for spy work as he spoke Turkish and Islamic and looked like a local. The battalion then moved to Palestine with fighting around Sheria and El Foka during December 1917. To France in May 1918 where the battalion saw some very hard fighting around the Hindenberg Line. Having served in G.S. Intelligence since 1917 he gained further promotion to T/Capt in August 1918 and recorded as GSO, Intelligence GHQ from 30 August 1918 with service in Egypt, the Western Desert, Palestine and Syria. Second MID LG 5/6/1919. Providing his services to the Egyptian Government from 1920 he is listed in Who's Who 1941 as Commandant Alexandria City Police and Assistant Director, Central Narcotics Bureau, Government of Egypt. He was appointed Order of the British Empire in 1934 as Assistant Commandant of the Cairo City Police and promoted to Commander of the British Empire in 1942 as Commandant of the Alexandria City Police, a role in which he continued until 1946. Extensive supporting paperwork to head of secret police, wartime spy group.

UnQuote

In the Who's Who entry (see the below image attached) I found that Francis Douglas BAKER (1884-1958), was also awarded with a not well identified Greek, Distinguished Service medal.

Can you correctly identify what exactly is the Greek, Distinguished Service medal he received ??

A guess is also well accepted !

You shouls bear in mind the following things :

1) During WW1 He was an Officer in service to the British Army (serving in G.S. Intelligence since 1917);

2) In the period 1920-1946 He entered in services to the Egyptian Government as Commandant of Alexandria City Police.

Many Thanks in advance for any help.

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited February 24, 2009 by lilo

[Megan]

Probably the Medal of Military Merit, instituted 28 February 1917 and awarded in 4 classes for heroism and leadership in combat.

[lilo]

Probably the Medal of Military Merit, instituted 28 February 1917 and awarded in 4 classes for heroism and leadership in combat.

Hello Megan,

Many thanks for your guess !

May I ask you why do you think that this is the correct medal ?

I'm asking this because I have read Baker's '1920 Army List' and there is no mention of a Greek award. If He was awarded this medal for 'heroism in combat' related to WW1, I would expect to find mention of this award in the Army List and in the London Gazette, but this is not the case so I'm more inclined to think that He gained this medal during the period 1920-46 when He was in the Egyptian Police.

What is your thinking ??

Many Thanks again

Lilo

Edited February 24, 2009 by lilo

[Hendrik]

I agree with Megan on the Military Merit Medal as it's the only one I can think of that somehow fits the vague naming in the Who's Who. And, I believe it to have been awarded fairly liberally for war services of all kinds, not "heroism in combat" only.

I don't see how service in Egypt would have been rewarded by a Greek medal - a post-1920 award for WWI services seems far more plausible.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[lilo]

Hi Hendrik,

Many thanks for your guess : Mauch appreciated as well as that of Megan.

All the Best

Lilo

[Emanuel]

Here is the Merit cross , medal 4th class or distinguished service how they call it also.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m133/em...OSS1916-17A.png

Now there are 2 versions, this is the WW I version, the other one is with a clasp with "1940" on it.

For the History, there were a regiment from Greece in Egypt during WW 2 that participate in El Alalamein and other actions, offering also Pilots for RAF.

The same regiment participate when Allie forces attack Italy to liberate from German forces there.

For this regiment ,there are 2 versions of medals, issued by Hellenic state.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Emanuel

[lilo]

Here is the Merit cross , medal 4th class or distinguished service how they call it also.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m133/em...OSS1916-17A.png

Hello Emanuel,

You say : 'how they call it'. Who are they ? (may be Megan and Hendrick ??)

Can you please tell me if you have only posted a photo of what Megan and Hendrik have guessed or if you, as a Greek, know for sure that the Merit cros was known in Greece ALSO as 'Distinguished Service medal' as mentioned in WHo's Who ?

I Greatly would appreciate your answer

Regards

Lilo

Edited February 25, 2009 by lilo

[Ed_Haynes]

Lilo-

The problem with this post (and so many others) is that you present us with a faulty translation/rendering/piece of linguisitic rubbish from some sloppy source, where they are trying to describe an award from a foreign country and then ask us to guess what award could possibly have been intended. Without an image of either an award or a ribbon, is it any wonder that we have to draw on guesswork as to what that source may have thought this person got?

These awards have perfectly good names in the original languages (Greek, Ottoman Tuskish, whatever), but, of course, no one in your flawed sources (or here) uses them (nor can the forum use the proper scripts anyway).

You are asking all of us to guess, and you should understand and appreciate this.

If someone describes a cat as a "dog", there will be no way for us to guess what the animal REALLY was.

Ed

[Ulsterman]

......also-the Royal Greek navy was in Egypt. This chap may have been one of the officials who assisted in suppressing the anti-allied "navy revolt".

[lilo]

Hello Ulsterman,

Many thanks for your kindness.

Can you please specify when happened this "navy revolt" in Egypt ?

Best Regards

Lilo

[Ed_Haynes]

A clarification: When I refer to "flawed sources", I am talking about the places where Lilo has extracted the gibberish names about which he wants us to guess. I am in no way alluding to any of the Wish Ones who have been playing these guessing games. If anyone used the correct names (in, for example, Greek or Ottoman Turkish) and could post them here we'd be far ahead of talking about these things even in an accurate English translation. Unfortunately, Lilo's quoted sources are not even in the same universe when it comes to using precise or accurate or helpful names.

Sorry that my frustration got in the way of my clarity of expression.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Ed_Haynes

[Emanuel]

When I said they,I mean Greek authorities of course.

This medal had in years 3 variants, this one is for WW1, another one similar is for WW2 and one for 70's.

I guess this "Merit medal" name was called after WW 2 but this newspaper (or book whatever )of yours use the old one during WW1.

There is of course a Distinguished medal for WW2 created at 25th of January 1945 that was awarded to AIR FORCE personel of 12 months of meritorious service with combat units in time of war.

But I doubt Baker is a recipient of it as the chap was already 61+ years old when this came into light.

I bold the word to see how in Greek language Meritorious is used for a Distinguish medal so the same can be for a Merit medal.

Here is the medal I mention from WW2:

Edited February 25, 2009 by Emanuel

[Emanuel]

......also-the Royal Greek navy was in Egypt. This chap may have been one of the officials who assisted in suppressing the anti-allied "navy revolt".

I doubt that was his case, this is a badge 1st of all, very very rare and very expensive,I think no more than 150 foks got that and that was during WW2 also.....

[lilo]

Hello Megan, Hendrik, Emanuel, Ulsterman

You are very kind and patient persons with great knowledge : Many thanks for your precious help that I have sincerely appreciated !

Emanuel

Many thanks to have taken time in further explain your thinking/guess !

Best Regards

Lilo

[hipnos]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-4281-1235599708.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-4281-1235599120.jpg

Probably the Medal of Military Merit, instituted 28 February 1917 and awarded in 4 classes for heroism and leadership in combat.

An that is the military medal post-1940, yellow ribbon, with red stripes, no bar 1940. King?s cypher crossed (george "G" in greel alphabet) "au lieu" of the phoenix, and 1940 in the rev. side.

regards

Miguel

[Ulsterman]

Hello Megan, Hendrik, Emanuel, Ulsterman

You are very kind and patient persons with great knowledge : Many thanks for your precious help that I have sincerely appreciated !

Emanuel

Many thanks to have taken time in further explain your thinking/guess !

Best Regards

Lilo

Yes-the badge, very rare and now faked, was to Greeks only. here, the obit. clearly refers to a medal.

Allied officers who were liaisons with the royal Greek forces, as well as staff officers, received a number of Greek awards.

[hipnos]

That?s the Bravery cross w/ bar 1940...

Miguel

[Spiros]

Lilo and All,

First of all it is "The Medal of Outstanding Acts" and not a Cross.

The "Medal of Military Merit" in 4 classes was established in 1917 and at the time it was an award for bravery in the battle, later it became a merit award. This medal was awarded to many Officers and men of the allies in the Macedonian Front in 1917. At the time Baker was in Palestine in 1917 and then to France in 1918, so this is not his award.

After the fall of Greece in April 1941 the Greek Armed Forces - many Army units, all of the Navy and many Air Force pilots and personel - moved to Egypt and fought with the Allies against the Axis Forces between April 1941 and September 1944, fought in El Alamein, participated in the invasion of Italy and other other major battles. This for the history.

Baker most probably has received the "Medal for Outstanding Acts 1940" since he was in Egypt between 1942-1946.

There is a medal called "H.A.F Distinguished Service Medal" but this was only for the men of the Royal Hellenic Air Force - I am shure it is not the one he got.

Do you have any photo of him with the medals ???

The 1st type medal is the same as the Military Merit Medal of 1917 but with a bar 1940 attached on the ribbon. Here are the photos of the 1st type and the 2nd type that was introduced at the begining of the 1950's.

I hope I have answered your questions.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Spiros

[lilo]

Hello Hipnos / Spiros

Many thanks for your further Help.

Spiros

Sorry no photo of Baker : Unfortunately all that I was able to obtain on Baker during my research is the entry on the medal catalog, the 1920 Army List and the Who's Who entries.

So, if I well understood, the 'Greek, Distinguished Service medal' Baker was awarded with was the "Medal of Outstanding Acts" and in particular the exact type is that (on the left in your photo) that has a 'PHOENIX' instead of the King?s cypher "X II" and with black stripes + '1940' bar on its riband, isn't it ?

Many Thanks again

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited February 26, 2009 by lilo

[Spiros]

Lilo

Yes that is the one with the black stripes and the bar 1940,

the 2nd type with King George's cypher was introduced after 1950.

Regards

Spiros

[Megan]

http://www.medals.org.uk/greece/greece017.htm shows the Medal of Military Merit (1917).

The Medal for Outstanding Acts - http://www.medals.org.uk/greece/greece018.htm - was introduced in 1940, originally using the 4th class of the Medal of Military Merit, but later getting its own design.

Then in 1950 it was replaced by the Distinguished Conduct Medal - http://www.medals.org.uk/greece/greece016.htm - which is the one with red rather than black stripes on a yellow ribbon. That's still awarded, with appropriate design changes post-1974.

Apologies for all the links, I'm at work so do not have the images to upload!

Edited February 26, 2009 by Megan

[lilo]

Hello Spiros / Megan

Many thanks for your Help.

All the Best

Lilo

[James Hoard]

I cannot really answer the question posed in the original post, but a few bits of background information on the subject in general.

Who's Who entries are not dreamed up by some fool sitting in a publishing house cellar or grate. The entries are basically the product of the subject's own hand. Thus the Greek Distinguished Service Medal is the name that the officer himself would have entered on the form.

Egypt, before the revolution, had a substantial resident Greek population. They mostly resided in Alexandria and Cairo. So one could imagine all sorts of situations where a police officer may have acted to protect Greek citizens or property.

During WW2 King George II and the Greek Government in Exile, in addition to the fleet, army and air force were located in Egypt following their evacuation from Crete. Again, one could imagine all sorts of situations where a police officer could have performed distinguished services to them.

Perhaps what you could do is look through the London Gazette for permissions for the other foreign decorations listed. Since the listing of awards is not according to class or grade, one suspects that he has listed them according to date. Once you have got the dates of the other awards, the chronological sequence may give you an idea of the date of the Greek award.

Cheers,

James

[lilo]

Hello James,

Many thanks for your answer.

I already knew that the Who's Who entries were compiled by the same persons to which they were referred to.

I have searched the London Gazette online and have found the entries for only a part of the awards (i.e. the Egyptians, the Italian and obviously for the British). I also contacted an UK friend of mine (well known in the OMRS circuit) and he advised me that Baker was proposed for the award of the Egyptian medal for devotion in c. 1933.

Nothing was found for the others.

So, in conclusion, if your thinking is correct the 'Greek, Distinguished Service medal' was surely a post 1933 award and Not a WW1 one.

Many Thanks

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited February 27, 2009 by lilo

[James Hoard]

I have searched the London Gazette online and have found the entries for only a part of the awards (i.e. the Egyptians, the Italian and obviously for the British). I also contacted an UK friend of mine (well known in the OMRS circuit) and he advised me that Baker was proposed for the award of the Egyptian medal for devotion in c. 1933.

Nothing was found for the others.

So, in conclusion, if your thinking is correct the 'Greek, Distinguished Service medal' was surely a post 1933 award and Not a WW1 one.

Hello Lilo,

Do you actually mean pre-1933?

The Greek award is listed in the Who's Who entry before the Egyptian Medal for Devotion.

Cheers,

James