VC Ribbon Bar?

[landsknechte]

Admittedly I'm a complete and utter neophyte when it comes to UK ribbon bars (I specialize in German), but I found this bar last night. Did I manage to score a Victoria Cross ribbon bar, or is the first ribbon something else more mundane? Can anyone help me out interpreting it, and making sense of the couple of ribbons that appear to belong to a couple of different decorations. Note that the middle ribbon has two small holes where a device or devices once were.

Thanks,

--Chris

[JBFloyd]

Mundane? Well... depends upon your definition. Perhaps as interesting a story as a VC.

Order of the Bath

Victorian Order

Distinguished Service Order (the two holes could indicate a second award)

China 1900

India General Service Medal 1908

So, probably the first bar of a senior officer. His second bar would have had WWI ribbons, coronation ribbons and perhaps a foreign gong.

[landsknechte]

Mundane? Well... depends upon your definition. Perhaps as interesting a story as a VC.

Order of the Bath

Victorian Order

Distinguished Service Order (the two holes could indicate a second award)

China 1900

India General Service Medal 1908

So, probably the first bar of a senior officer. His second bar would have had WWI ribbons, coronation ribbons and perhaps a foreign gong.

I think that soundly qualifies as non-mundane. Royal Order of Dogwashers 3rd class was more what I was fearing.

Would something like this be potentially identifiable?

I also picked up a two place bar with the Ashante Medal and the Order of the Crown of Romania, similar, but not identical in construction. (Folded slightly differently in the back, and the thread is different.) I wonder what the story behind that oddity is.

[peter monahan]

I think that soundly qualifies as non-mundane. Royal Order of Dogwashers 3rd class was more what I was fearing.

Would something like this be potentially identifiable?

I also picked up a two place bar with the Ashante Medal and the Order of the Crown of Romania, similar, but not identical in construction. (Folded slightly differently in the back, and the thread is different.) I wonder what the story behind that oddity is.

Apparently the Order of the Crown was handed out to Romania's British allies with some frequency, as I had one for many years to a British offcier of Indian Cavalry who may or may not have been able to find Romania on a map! The chap I got it from had actually known an officer from the same unit, a contemporary of my man. His rather scurulous explanation was that the Romanians "sent them round to the War Ministry every Christmas" where they were issued to officers who had been recommended for but not gotten British decorations. Certainly my man had never served anywhere he could possibly have qualified for a Crown on his merits.

For what it's worth!

Peter

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Peter,

I believe the Royal Romanian Ribbon for Military Virtue,

as used upon Romanian Order of the Crown & Romanian Order of the Star

in wartime has thinner blue edge stripes.

In Romania it was awarded strictly for front-line duty, however

during WW1 circa 1916 onwards, the Romanian's dispatched boxes of the awards

and left it up to the War Department / War Office to decide who should be a recipient.

Hi landsknechte

I also picked up a two place bar with the Ashante Medal and the Order of the Crown of Romania, similar, but not identical in construction. (Folded slightly differently in the back, and the thread is different.) I wonder what the story behind that oddity is.

Can you post a picture of this item?

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Edited March 23, 2009 by Kev in Deva

[Ed_Haynes]

Back to the original bar . . . nice but scarcely hyper-unusual, and surely no chance to identify. Not an unusual post-WWI collection.

Surely it is post-WWI, as anyone with the Royal Victorian Order would have been close enough to the Royals to get some Durbar, Coronation, or Jubilee medals and since they aren't here worn ahead of the campaign medals, this must be post-WWI. Still, a nice item.

And, yes, please share the other ribbon bar.

[JBFloyd]

If you assume that one or more WWI ribbons follow this bar, his IGS 08 should have been awarded for one of the pre-war actions (NWF 1908 or Abor 1911-12). Since the Abor clasp is unusual to Europeans, it would push the search toward the regiments receiving the "NWF 1908" clasp:

1/Northumberland Fusiliers

1/R Warwickshire Regt

1/W Yorkshire Regt

1/Seaforth Highlanders

1/R Munster Fusilers

Although lots of other support units qualified.

So, even based on simple assumptions, it will be hard to narrow this one down.

[Ed_Haynes]

And he could, of course, have been a European officer serving in an Indian regiment . . . .

[landsknechte]

And, yes, please share the other ribbon bar.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo landsknechte,

Very nice

thanks for posting, to my eyes,

and I stand open to correction it

looks to be the ribbon for the:

Romanian Order of the Crown,

Officer (as opposed to knight),

Civil version.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[James Hoard]

Apparently the Order of the Crown was handed out to Romania's British allies with some frequency, as I had one for many years to a British offcier of Indian Cavalry who may or may not have been able to find Romania on a map! The chap I got it from had actually known an officer from the same unit, a contemporary of my man. His rather scurulous explanation was that the Romanians "sent them round to the War Ministry every Christmas" where they were issued to officers who had been recommended for but not gotten British decorations. Certainly my man had never served anywhere he could possibly have qualified for a Crown on his merits.

Doesn't this story "do the rounds" a bit too much? I seem to have seen it applied to several foreign awards for the sake of a good yarn, but is actually something of an urban myth.

One does not actually need to go to Romania, Romania sometimes comes to one. The two Royal families were closely related with visits back and forth. Ample opportunity for the odd ADC or flunky to pick up a Romanian award. As far as India goes, Crown Prince Carol was sent there on an extended visit and Romanian decorations were distributed.

Apart form this, during the Great War there would have been people in British military and civilian life who would have performed all sorts of services for the country while never leaving these shores. Anything from proving war loans to purchasing armaments, or from being attached to military delegations to helping out some Romanian military official in a bit of bother far away from home in the wilds of Persia.

From my observations of the War Office and Foreign Officer Lists and their respective deliberations in the Kew National Archives, some care was taken. At least after about 1916. They were distributed to people who had some connection with, by performing some service to, with or for the country awarding the decoration. They were not handed out willy-nilly at Christmas to whoever may not have received a British gong.

One must remember that as the War went on, there was a general tightening up of awards. In the early days of the War even the British MC and DSO were being distributed rather liberally. Not necessarily for actions one would have classed as gallentry by the standards of WW2. My own grand uncle's citation for his MC says that he received it for staying-put in his machine-gun post for 48 hours non-stop in Palestine.

The reasons why the respective allied War Offices were given the task of compiling the lists was because a) the awarding country's chancery invariably got the names, titles and ranks hopelessly wrong to the point where sometimes the individuals could not be identified or traced and b) because the receiving country would be more up to date on casualties, current rank, unit, etc.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

James

[ItemCo16527]

Very nice bars! The second one is definitely an odd one. The first ribbon on it could also be for the Africa General Service Medal. Both medals used the same ribbon design.

Edited April 30, 2009 by ItemCo16527

[Ralph]

I have a group with the Roumanian Order of the Crown and my research led to the fact that he was NOT entitled. However, in the course of my research found following:

Confidential Memo 5th Brigade RAF

" 1. Please submit to this office by the first D.R. on the 6th instant nominations on the attached pro-forms for the Roumanian Decorations to British Officers an other ranks in accordance with the allotment shown on the attached list.

2. The allotment is based on the Composition of the Forces on the cessation of hostilities.

3. An Officer or other rank who has already received a foreign decoration on the nomination of the Field Marshall Comander-in-Chief should not again be recommended.

4. With regard to those decorations which are for acts of bravery ,the particualr act or acts of bravery should be stated.

5. Although an allotment is given it should not be taken for granted that approval will be given to all recommendations submitted.

amongst others this particular unit submitted

Capt. A Mc.C. Wilson (my man) H.L.I attached RAF with following recommendation:

This officer's work as Adjutant of my Balloon wing covering a period of 6 months has been of the highest class. He is at all time most concientious and devoted to duty.

During times of particular stress he has not spared himself, even when most overburdened.

He had not connection with Roumania, did'nt serve with any unit that went there etc.etc whcih I think does give some credence that the awards were distributed by the Allied Command without taking e.g.Roumanian service into account.

Mc,C Wilson was subsequently awarded a MBE (Military)

Ralph

[landsknechte]

An old thread, I know. Over the last few days, I've started to search around on the internet to see if I can track down who this belonged to. It seems that this particular combination should be relatively unique, especially given the Boxer Rebellion connection. Haven't been able to dig up anything yet. Any thoughts on this?

[Michael Johnson]

My personal opinion is that the combination of India General Service Medal plus Boxer rebellion means probably Indian Army, with Royal Artillery a possibility.

An Indian Army List might turn up some possibles.