Question re: Blue Division & Spanish Army protocol

[Obergefreiter]

I think most countries allow the wearing of foreign awards, but they're usually at the tail end of a medal bar. But I often see pictures of medal bars for Blue Division veterans where the Iron Cross come first. According to Spanish Army protocol, where exactly would an Iron Cross be on a legitimate Spanish medalbar?

[Dolfek]

If I remember it well, the Spanish Army protocol says that foreign awards are worn the last of all.

But it?s true that Blue Division veterans wore the EK on first place very often. Don?t forget they used a mixture of badges and medals with no regulation at all on their german uniforms. Maybe they continued to do the same when back to Spain.

And I?m sure they were very proud of having foreign awards such as the EK on their chest.

Regards,

Dolfek.

[Obergefreiter]

And I?m sure they were very proud of having foreign awards such as the EK on their chest.

Regards,

Dolfek.

No doubt. I'm sure that an iron cross had a great deal more prestige than most Spanish awards of that time.

[Ed_Haynes]

No doubt. I'm sure that an iron cross had a great deal more prestige than most Spanish awards of that time.

Among the Spanish???

[Obergefreiter]

Among the Spanish???

Why not? If I had a well-earned valor award from some other country's military, I'd be proud of it.

[Ed_Haynes]

Why not? If I had a well-earned valor award from some other country's military, I'd be proud of it.

Sorry, I am just trying to understand the historical attitudes here. Why would one value a foreign award over one from their own country? Admittedly, the Spanish fascists were odd, but that would be very odd, wouldn't it?

[Obergefreiter]

Sorry, I am just trying to understand the historical attitudes here. Why would one value a foreign award over one from their own country? Admittedly, the Spanish fascists were odd, but that would be very odd, wouldn't it?

Maybe I'm looking at it from an odd angle myself. But I guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint of having an earned award for valor on the one hand, no matter where it came from, as opposed to something like a good conduct medal, or something similar. Recognition for what one does is always nice, but merit is merit and valor is valor. If it were me, I'd hold the valor award in higher regard than the merit award.

[Scott]

Sorry, I am just trying to understand the historical attitudes here. Why would one value a foreign award over one from their own country? Admittedly, the Spanish fascists were odd, but that would be very odd, wouldn't it?

Prior to the outbreak of WWII, many Legion Condor vets wore their Spanish medals from the Civil War ahead of their German-issued awards. Granted, mounting errors were made by the firms building the medal/ribbon bars, but there's pleanty of period photo evidence to show this was done.

[PKeating]

Sorry, I am just trying to understand the historical attitudes here. Why would one value a foreign award over one from their own country? Admittedly, the Spanish fascists were odd, but that would be very odd, wouldn't it?

Not everyone in the Divisi?n Azul was a fascist. It is true that Franco encouraged some of the more rabid falangist types to join the Blue Division to continue the fight against Bolshevism but many of the volunteers were perfectly ordinary fellows who joined up to fight an evil system, just like the young men from all over Europe who joined the German Army to fight Stalinism. I remember senior Spanish officers in the 1970s who wore their German medals with great pride.

PK

[Guest Rick Research]

I find no mention of actual Spanish precedence regulations in "Condecoraciones Espa?olas (undated, 1950s?--tipped in 1963 Order of Tourism).

Historically, it was not uncommon for European states to put foreign war Orders/decorations ahead of their own medals along the lines of

native war Orders

foreign war Orders

native war decorations

foreign war decorations

native medals

foreign medals

etc

but no joy concerning Spanish practice from the classic Franco period reference book.

[PKeating]

My recollection is of the Iron Cross 2nd Class and other German decorations like the War Service Cross worn at the end of the medal bars by officers in dress uniform. I don't recall ever seeing any 1957-type reissues. They wore the German medals as they were issued, with the swastika. Recipients of the EK1 and other pinback awards wore them as-issued, in the same manner as German personnel.

Link broken - see below

The highly decorated Civil War and Eastern Front veteran Juan Luis Pacheco P?rez, who served with the Spanish Foreign Legion and the Blue Division. He died this year aged 90. P?rez won four Crosses of Military Merit as well as a host of other bravery awards and the EK2. He seems to be wearing Spanish-made examples of his German awards.

Non-commissioned veterans attended rallies, reunions and other ceremonial events with their medals as-issued. There were also a couple of Spanish medal firms producing locally-made versions of German medals for veterans, which were not terribly well-made by comparison with most Spanish awards. I have a few, including, interestingly enough, an Eagle Order. Over 18,000 volunteers served in the Divisi?n Azul so there was a market for the suppliers.

According to some sources, Spanish volunteers in the struggle against Bolshevism won 2,359 EK2, 2,216 KVK2 and 138 EK1. There were also two RK, one with Oakleaves, and two DKiG. They received the Blue Division Medal but I certainly recall some of the veterans wearing the Winter War Medal, signifying service in that first winter with Armee Gruppe Mitte and then Armee Gruppe Nord. Almost 5,000 Spaniards lost their lives in German uniform, with around 8,500 wounded.

By the time Spain joined NATO in 1982, there were no serving veterans of the Blue Division in the Spanish armed forces, although there were some reserve officers who turned up to events in dress uniform from time to time. I wonder if any of them ever attended any events or soir?es alongside German officials or at the German embassy in Madrid wearing their 1939 pattern awards. That said, many of them were keeping low profiles at the time because of their involvement in the so-called Tejero Putsch in February 1981. However, others showed themselves loyal to the King.

As I said, not all of them were fascists. There were even former Republicans, trying to curry favour with the new government. More than 3,000 declined to come home when General Franco issued the recall order in 1943, joining various Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS formations, including the SS-Jagdverb?nde and Brandenburgers as well as regular infantry and mountain infantry units. Spaniards who had not served with the Divisi?n Azul crossed the frontier to join up and there was also a 'freelance' unit of around fifty falangista hardliners who prowled the Pyrenees, hunting down bands of former Republican fighters on the run after Franco's victory in 1939.

PK

Edited April 21, 2009 by PKeating

[Naxos]

In Spanish, but informative

http://www.libreriaeuropa.es/familias.php?fam=44219

Spanish mother wearing her son's EKII

Edited April 21, 2009 by Naxos

[Obergefreiter]

My thanks to all of you who provided some information on my question. Every little bit of information helps in this hobby. ;)

[Ed_Haynes]

Ah . . . these "Azul" people were part of the Wehrmacht, not the Spanish Army (the wore their breast eagle, after all). This would make a difference, as they served in a foreign army (unless some serious diplomacy was involved).

[PKeating]

They were as much a part of the Wehrmacht as the Condor Legion was a part of the Spanish armed forces or, rather, that element of the Spanish armed forces under Franco and his comrades who instigated the revolt in 1936. The Condor Legion wore Spanish uniforms. Even when they paraded through Berlin in 1939 to celebrate the victory, they wore an approximation of the uniforms worn in Spain, using Reichsarbeitsdienst uniforms with their Spanish-based insignia and their Spanish awards.

P?rez is wearing the 'home' uniform of the Divisi?n Azul as the wearing of German uniforms in neutral Spain would have been problematic. The uniform comprised the falangista blue shirt, the khaki trousers of the Spanish Foreign Legion - of which the Generalissimo had long been an officer - and the Carlist red beret. He looks just as he would have looked - age and a few medals apart - on leave from the Eastern Front in 1944. However, he would have taken the train back to his unit in Wehrmacht uniform.

Yes, they were part of Wehrmacht but they were also an officially recognised Spanish military formation. They were in a similar position to the LVF, which was also part of the Wehrmacht but had French dress and walking-out uniforms in addition to their German kit. The sole difference was that the French government of the day had formed an alliance with Berlin and was therefore not a neutral state. P?rez wears the German-issued Division Espa?ola medal, which we call The Blue Division Medal, as well as the Spanish-issued award comprising the Spanish eagle with the 1939 Iron Cross motif. He also wears his EK2 and his Winter War Medal.

PK

[PKeating]

A well-known propaganda shot of men of the Divisi?n Azul. Some of them are Civil War veterans.

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks. I am just far more familiar with the compliacted debates over the status and conditions of service regarding the Free Indian Army (Azad Hind Fauj). Somehow, I had assumed Franco might have played the same defensive game that Bose did. Maybe I overestimated Franco.

[PKeating]

?Viva la muerte...abajo inteligencia!: a young soldier of the Blue Division with the Falange badge and a Luftwaffe 'gull' on his ski-cap. At least these men had a valid reason to be in German uniform, unlike the Azad Hind renegades, for instance, who were never committed to battle, even when the Germans were really scraping the barrel. A further point of interest is the Portuguese contingent within the Blue Division.

PK

Edited April 21, 2009 by PKeating

[Ed_Haynes]

?Viva la muerte...abajo inteligencia!: a young soldier of the Blue Division with the Falange badge and a Luftwaffe 'gull' on his ski-cap. At least these men had a valid reason to be in German uniform, unlike the Azad Hind renegades, for instance, who were never committed to battle, even when the Germans were really scraping the barrel. A further point of interest is the Portuguese contingent within the Blue Division.

PK

Yet you do not wish to attribute an ideological motivation .... Valid? Off to my dictionary ....

Won't even try to discuss the AHF here. If for no other reasoin, . They had their agenda, which wasn't Hitler's. And after Stalingrad it was moot. (Hitler lost there.)

[PKeating]

One should never fall into the trap of underestimating Francisco Franco. But let's not get into that discussion here as GMIC is not the place for it and I doubt if our viewpoints on that score are reconcilable. Back on topic: here is a great shot of Lieutenant General Don Jose Gabeiras Monyero inspecting the 1st Battalion 2nd King Edward VII Own Gurkha Rifles at the Ministry of Defence in London on 30.10.1979.

Note the Winter War Medal in third position on his medal bar. Gabieras would remain loyal to the young King Ju?n Carlos during the F-23 coup d'?tat, popularly known as the Tejero Putsch in February 1981. Anyway, I think this image provides a fairly conclusive answer to the topical question. This senior member of the Spanish General Staff representing his King and his nation four years after the Caudillo's death would have been observing protocol to the most minute degree. This confirms Rick's earlier post: had Gabieras received the Iron Cross 2nd Class, he would probably have worn it just after his Military Merit Cross, in front of the Civil War medal.

Image ? Steve Burton/Getty Images

[PKeating]

You brought the Azad Hind people up, Ed. In fact, on reflection, it is relevant to this discussion. We can certainly discuss it elsewhere on this forum. It is an interesting subject but you're stretching things a bit in your effort compare them to the Blue Division. There is no comparison to be made. Nor is there really any comparison to be made between Chandra Bose and Francisco Franco. Chandra Bose would have welcomed help from Hitler in ending British rule in India but Franco not only managed to obtain substantial help from Hitler but also managed to avoid the mistake Mussolini made in becoming too entangled with the F?hrer.

You mention the Azad Hind Fauj or Indian National Army and Bose but which Bose do you mean? Rash Bose or Chandra Bose? If you are referring to the AHF as formed by the Indian expatriate Rash Bose, living in Tokyo, and later developed under the guidance of Chandra Bose and the Provisional Government of Free India, I would be more inclined to compare them to Vlasov's Russian Liberation Army (POA). The Indian units formed by the Germans might have had the approval of the PGNI but unlike their INA counterparts in the Far East, they never saw action. The INA, on the other hand, fought alongside the Japanese Imperial Army in Burma and the east of India, near Imphal.

Would former Indian Army other ranks and NCOs have worn medals or medal ribbons earned in British service on their INA or Wehrmacht uniforms? Again, given their new-found antipathy to Britain, they were as likely to do so as POA soldiers were likely to wear Soviet awards earned in the service of Moscow. Unlike the men of the Divisi?n Azul, L?gion Volontaire Fran?aise and certain Waffen-SS foreign volunteer units, whose service in German uniform against Bolshevism was perfectly legitimate and legal, formations like the INA and the POA could not claim the same legitimacy and legality, no matter how morally justified they might have felt in turning their coats.

If anyone has a photograph of an Indian in Wehrmacht uniform or INA service wearing British medal ribbons, I would love to see it. Same applies to POA men and Soviet decorations. Mind you, I believe that some older POA men put their old Tsarist medals on, subject to availability.

PK

[Lancer 21]

?Viva la muerte...abajo inteligencia!: a young soldier of the Blue Division with the Falange badge and a Luftwaffe 'gull' on his ski-cap. At least these men had a valid reason to be in German uniform, unlike the Azad Hind renegades, for instance, who were never committed to battle, even when the Germans were really scraping the barrel. A further point of interest is the Portuguese contingent within the Blue Division.

PK

I was aware of Portuguese units on both sides during the Spanish Civil War but I was unaware of any Portuguese involvement in the Spanish Blue Division in the continued fight against the Bolsheviks on the Eastern front. Is there any photographic evidence showing some kind of formation emblem or uniform variation that identifies the Portuguese contingent? Would love to see it if there is any, thanks.

[Dolfek]

Hitler approved the use of Spanish and Portuguese volunteers on June 24, 1941.

This?s the only badge I?ve found connecting Portugal and the Nazi Germany: http://www.el-rastro.com/fascio2_portugal.htm

Regards,

Dolfek.