German spelling

[joerookery]

Rick Research recently helped me immensely by (in addition to other things) pointing out some spelling errors in an upcoming work. While the proper spelling is second nature to this Titan, for a mere mortal like me I often had problems. I thought I would add this paragraph from the introduction of the book to this forum just to show why I had such a problem. There are other reasons for my shortcomings, but this one is tough for an English speaker to initially overcome. I thought it might interest some of you.

One of the single most frustrating English language anomalies when dealing with Imperial Germany is that the language was not standard. We have been publicly scolded that German people could just look things up in the dictionary. This is a myth that takes some background. There were a slew of dictionaries and official language uses that followed state or dialectic lines. In 1876 Prussia tried to bring this together, but the attempt was rejected by the various states. In 1879 Bavaria published their own grammar guide, followed by Austria and Prussia a year later. Using the Bavarian and Prussian rules Konrad Duden published a more widely accepted dictionary. This spread slowly and it was not accepted by the states, except for W?rttemberg. In order to make sure a uniform grammar and spelling was adopted in all German speaking states including Austria and Switzerland in June 1901 a second conference was called to further spelling and grammar reform (?Beratungen ?ber die Einheitlichkeit der deutschen Rechtschreibung).? Better known as II Orthographische Konferenz this received a much wider reception and in 1901 a lot of "th" were abolished and replaced by simple "t"(e.g. Thal or F?rstenthum). In several words and names (except Cassel and C?ln) "c" was replaced by "k". Many other letter "c" in words with a French background were turned into "z". The letter "i" with longer pronunciation were replaced by "ie". The standards became generally accepted and turned into official regulations by December 1902. However, the Kaiser initially opposed the change and official documents were supposed to be submitted written in both forms until 1911. The changes were not adopted by many publishers, who did not wish to change their typeset. That is why you may find different spelling in texts written between 1871 and 1918.

[Guest Rick Research]

Then there was also a FREAKISH German antiquarian habit-- sporadically found into the Third Reich period, of "alphabetizing" words with the letter S thusly

1) Sa to Scg (I know there is no such thing-- bear with me)

2) Sci to Sz (ditto)

3) Words beginning with Sch (as if THAT was ONE letter)

4) Words beginning with St (ditto).

So the following words would be in THIS demented order: Sammlung, Sonneschein, System, Schirm, Stein.

Then the "modernists" alphabetized vowels with umlauts as just those vowels with funny hats-- ?, ?, ?, while the "traditionalists" persisted in alphabetizing as if every one was ae, oe, ue.

Now, of course, the world is quite happily illiterate. The "spell check" and "grammar check" on my computer, having been programmed in some Third World country using dictionaries from the reign of Queen Victoria, not only prompts for some VERY odd surely-you-meant words, but is almost invariably (99.8%) WRONG on actual English grammar for such things as it's versus its. Human type persons who never learned these things CORRECTLY simply click what the IDIOT MACHINE tells them is correct-- when it is most assuredly NOT.

It is a lonely struggle in these New Dark Ages.

(BTW-- Joe's book is BRILLIANT !!! BRILLIANT !!!!!!)

[cartoonman]

It is a lonely struggle [against the illiterates] in these New Dark Ages.

---Yes, yes, yes... AGREED! I received an email this morning, inviting me to a meeting to discuss what we can do to improve education in my fair city. It started out, "Your invited to the next meeting of the (blah, blah, blah).

And worse? The writer is a teacher...

---Shoveling Sheets Against the Tide :banger:

[Guest Rick Research]

Don't use any Big Words or they'll know you aren't one of them.

Handwritten German also had a calligraphic quirk-- a doubled letter could be written as a single with a stroke over a single of that letter. Tricksy, tricksy. :ninja:

[cartoonman]

Yes, and I remember stories about that--- either that the line thingy was invented to allow printers to "squeeze" words, if they ran outta room on a line, and/or that old-time printers bitched about it, because they were paid by the LETTER fortheir printing, and this cost them one Pfennig, or what-have-you, for every letter not printed...

And--- remember how much fun it was, trying to read Frat?r, or whatever the old-style print was called? We had to learn it, in my German classes in Munich... UGH! Also, prper German handwriting still expects that you put a line over "u"s, to distinguish them from "n"s, I think...

---Speaks It Better Than Wirtes It

Don't use any Big Words or they'll know you aren't one of them.

Handwritten German also had a calligraphic quirk-- a doubled letter could be written as a single with a stroke over a single of that letter. Tricksy, tricksy.

[bob lembke]

Thanks for the explaination of the alphabetizing. Lately I've been using my Ranglisten a lot, and working with the Name Index I have realized that the alphabetization seems "faulty", which I found surprising, given the drive for perfection of the Ur=Ueber=Volk. I just learned to widen the search beyond the bounds of normal alphabetization. I must say that the deviations seem wider than the example given above. It also seems to follow the Umlaut "u" = "ue" rule given above.

Incidentally, I have recently increased my collection of Ranglisten u. Dienstalterslisten to about 30, mostly but not exclusively Prussian, and I will watch the Club's post and attempt to do lookups for people if possible. I am very appreciative of the valuable assistance I have often received from the masters of the Guild of Research Gnomes, people like Rick R. and Glenn J., and I will try to pitch in with the questions that a mere mortal as myself might be able to assist with.

Bob Lembke

[VtwinVince]

Speaking of arcane, there is a particular North American country which persists in using the Imperial system.

[Mike Dwyer]

Speaking of arcane, there is a particular North American country which persists in using the Imperial system.

Perhaps we're just hoping the Empire comes back! :rolleyes:

[Les]

Speaking of arcane, there is a particular North American country which persists in using the Imperial system.

The Imperial System of weights and measures adopted in the UK circa 1824 and in official use until 1995, and the United States system of weights and measures are not identical, and different enough that the systems are known by different names. There are enough differences (besides the Imperial and US gallons) between the two, that it can be said the United States never used or adopted what is/was known in the UK (or Canada among other places) the Imperial system at all.

[Les]

My father was German from the Pfalz, and my mother an Austrian from the Brenner region.

I learned very early listening to my relatives from both sides of the family, that German spoken (and written) in Germany and Austria might be on the same par with American and British English. For the moment, let's not go too far afield with the way Australians, South Africans, those hairy kilt wearers north of the former Hadrian's wall make noises at each other, and the mellifluously clear sounds of Irishmen speaking to each other. ;-)

Languages influence cultures, and the way people think and in turn, how they see the world around them. The symbolism and thoughts wrapped up in words can in turn affect relations with neighboring countries that speak different languages, and so on.

Bear in mind, that Austria was a nation before Richard III went on the Crusades, and was an Empire for a major part of the modern historical era. During the heyday of the Empire, there were no less than nine official languages that could be used for governmental business, etc. Compare than with the largely "German" state that developed much later, and had many different views on language, culture, nationality, and international views.

Two different "Empires" and more than one or two differences, the way they developed, and the way they are seen by "history."

Not quite the same, and not standardized. A peach and nectarine might look the same, taste similar to some people, but there is a difference between the two.

I suggest a look at the following article for a few of the differences that turn up with regards to cooking/foods, legal terminology, and other areas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_German

Les

[Bernhard H.Holst]

Hello all:

"Deutsche Sprache, schwere Sprache". It may be of passing interest that I began grade-school in Germany learning to write on a slate and doing so in Suetterlin. After two years we graduated to pen and paper AND modern script. We also were subject to corporal punishment (in retrospect I dare say it has not affected my mental well-being but it did encouraged the others a few , valuable times. My grades in the subject "Deutsch" were always shall I say acceptable and I can still carry on a conversation during which I seem to be understood and write without the need of a dictionary. The punctuation is also still present but there are some hard and fast rules. My high school English learned the hard way while taught by a very disciplinary minded female teacher also stuck so that upon entering the US Army I passed all tests then applied to recruits incl. the one allowing me to apply for Officers Candidate School.. the difficulties of teaching the metric system incl. meters or the 24 hours military time was just beyond the grasp of many .Now it is sad to see what our tax money buys in education. As mentioned above reliance on spell-checker is great ( grate and great and brake and break come readily to mind. I have heard too many times:" I can't spell , ha, ha haa" or " I have not touched a book since college".

But I must disagree with those who consider English a difficult language. they cannot know French, Russian , Chinese or for that matter German.

Just my two-cents worth.

Bernhard H. Holst

[Naxos]

.... I must disagree with those who consider English a difficult language. they cannot know French, Russian , Chinese or for that matter German.

Bernhard H. Holst

:cheers:

[Josef Rietveld]

My father was German from the Pfalz, and my mother an Austrian from the Brenner region.

I learned very early listening to my relatives from both sides of the family, that German spoken (and written) in Germany and Austria might be on the same par with American and British English. For the moment, let's not go too far afield with the way Australians, South Africans, those hairy kilt wearers north of the former Hadrian's wall make noises at each other, and the mellifluously clear sounds of Irishmen speaking to each other. ;-)

Languages influence cultures, and the way people think and in turn, how they see the world around them. The symbolism and thoughts wrapped up in words can in turn affect relations with neighboring countries that speak different languages, and so on.

Bear in mind, that Austria was a nation before Richard III went on the Crusades, and was an Empire for a major part of the modern historical era. During the heyday of the Empire, there were no less than nine official languages that could be used for governmental business, etc. Compare than with the largely "German" state that developed much later, and had many different views on language, culture, nationality, and international views.

Two different "Empires" and more than one or two differences, the way they developed, and the way they are seen by "history."

Not quite the same, and not standardized. A peach and nectarine might look the same, taste similar to some people, but there is a difference between the two...

Les

wellspoken

The famous austrian publicist Karl Kraus Biography once said: "Der ?sterreicher unterscheidet sich vom Deutschen durch die gemeinsame Sprache"

The austrian differs from the german by their joint language.

regards

josef

PS: It is not sure that this bonmot has really been said b Kraus