Flammenwerfer! Flames, skulls and stuff

[Chris Boonzaier]

Total junk. 

​Jup, but expensive junk! ;-)

[Thomas W]

Two bizarre anomalies in one photo. Note the medic on the right.

1. He's got his Totenkopf on his OVERCOAT sleeve. Each man was issued only one badge. Maybe he was so proud of the death's head that he didn't mind tearing it off and resewing it on, depending on the season. I've never seen one on an overcoat before.

2. He's a medic. Normally medics were attached from the Medical Companies. A medic wouldn't have been trained on flamethrowers. It's possible that he's wearing the red cross brassard because he's simply been DEEMED a medic by the unit, but I've never seen medical personnel with a flamethrower badge.

 

Edited July 1, 2015 by Thomas W

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

how do we know each man only got one? The group we know (now with Robin and Chip) had two examples in it?

Best

Chris

[Thomas W]

Hi,

how do we know each man only got one? The group we know (now with Robin and Chip) had two examples in it?

Best

Chris

I don't know what you mean. Are you saying that Robin and Chip's badges both came from the same man? What was his name?

Bob Lembke said his father was issued only one badge, which was cut off his sleeve by a French soldier. He had the badge replaced, and then his first wife threw it out after the war.

Somewhere in my postcards I have a flamethrower pioneer talking about how he's got his new badge, and he has to take care of it because he received only one.

Also, Sturmtruppen and Flammenwerfer by Ludwig Charles Theune says that each flamethrower pioneer has two uniforms, one with the flamethrower badge and one without. I have dozens of photos that show flamethrower pioneers wearing either a Garde Pionier uniform with no badge or a pioneer uniform with no badge and no Litzen.

I also have a photo of a Feldwebel-Leutnant wearibng a pioneer uniform with no Litzen but a badge.

The badge was an award, no different than a medal. Only one was issued. It could be replaced, though.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Thomas W

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chip and Robins came from the same man, it is not up to me to reveal the name.

The Germans were not stingy with awards, with things like arm shields in WW2 Officers recieved 3 (for insatnce)

It is indeed possible that initially each soldier got just one, and clever ones managed to organise more... but I think it could probably be classified as a working theory as opposed to a fact?

 

Best

Chris

[Chip]

 I ended up with the Erkennungsmarke for the pioneer with two sleeve badges. His name was Johann Meyer, 3.Komp.

Chip

[Thomas W]

Chip and Robins came from the same man, it is not up to me to reveal the name.

The Germans were not stingy with awards, with things like arm shields in WW2 Officers recieved 3 (for insatnce)

It is indeed possible that initially each soldier got just one, and clever ones managed to organise more... but I think it could probably be classified as a working theory as opposed to a fact?

 

Best

Chris

However you want to describe it is fine with me.

[Thomas W]

 I ended up with the Erkennungsmarke for the pioneer with two sleeve badges. His name was Johann Meyer, 3.Komp.

Chip

How do we know that both badges were issued to him? Is there a document saying, "These two badges once belonged to Johann Meyer"?

[Robin Lumsden]

Tom.

The two badges and the ID disc all came from a Hamburg house clearance.

Here's an old photo of the group from my files ..................

[Robin Lumsden]

Disc a bit closer.

 

[Robin Lumsden]

Whether he was issued with two badges ....................... or issued with one and just picked the other one up ........................ who knows.

[Chris Boonzaier]

If I remember correctly the house clearer sold them as "Totenkopfschwimmer" badges

[Robin Lumsden]

Korrekt !!  Niemann couldn't believe his luck.

Neither could I ...................... eventually !!  ;)

 

[Hoss]

Two bizarre anomalies in one photo. Note the medic on the right.

1. He's got his Totenkopf on his OVERCOAT sleeve. Each man was issued only one badge. Maybe he was so proud of the death's head that he didn't mind tearing it off and resewing it on, depending on the season. I've never seen one on an overcoat before.

2. He's a medic. Normally medics were attached from the Medical Companies. A medic wouldn't have been trained on flamethrowers. It's possible that he's wearing the red cross brassard because he's simply been DEEMED a medic by the unit, but I've never seen medical personnel with a flamethrower badge.

 

Soldiers are wearing camouflage cutout helmets what is the image date?

Eric

[Robin Lumsden]

I guess 1919.

[Thomas W]

Whether he was issued with two badges ....................... or issued with one and just picked the other one up ........................ who knows.

Exactly.

Disc a bit closer.

 

That's the replacement battalion. There wasn't a disk from the Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment?

Soldiers are wearing camouflage cutout helmets what is the image date?

Eric

No date, but the Truppführer appears to be wearing the sleeve badge of Minenwerfer Detachment Heuschkel.

 

[Hoss]

Chip 

Does the helmet also show an mg badge or having had it removed?  pity about no date thanks anyway sorry about the image crop but its interesting.

Eric

[Robin Lumsden]

Tom.

That's the only disc that came with the group, so far as I'm aware,

2 x TKs and 1 x disc.

[Thomas W]

Tom.

That's the only disc that came with the group, so far as I'm aware,

2 x TKs and 1 x disc.

Thanks, Robin. I was under the impression that the badges were from a confirmed member of the flamethrower regiment.

So there were two authentic badges, but there's no evidence that they belonged to the same man or that they belonged to Johann Meyer, since all we know about him is that he made it as far as the replacement battalion, where they didn't wear badges.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Thanks, Robin. I was under the impression that the badges were from a confirmed member of the flamethrower regiment.

So there were two authentic badges, but there's no evidence that they belonged to the same man or that they belonged to Johann Meyer, since all we know about him is that he made it as far as the replacement battalion, where they didn't wear badges.

Which in no way shape or form does not mean he was not popsted to the regiment after instruction... on top of that, many german soldiers kept their original tag and further postings were added.

I dont think anyone who followed this group from the beginning doubts they belong together.

[Thomas W]

Which in no way shape or form does not mean he was not popsted to the regiment after instruction... on top of that, many german soldiers kept their original tag and further postings were added.

I dont think anyone who followed this group from the beginning doubts they belong together.

Of course. That increases the value of the grouping. But I was told that the two badges belonged to a flamethrower pioneer named Johann Meyer.

Instead it turns out that two badges and a disk from a man who made it as far as the replacement battalion were said to have have been found in the same house.

That's quite a different story from the one I was told.

[Chris Boonzaier]

What are the chances of 2 badges and a tag being found in the same house and NOT being connected? And how on earth do you know he only made it to the replacement battalion?

 

Maybe you should read up a bit on dogtags... as I said before, many groups have the ersatz unit tag with 1 or 2 added units...

[Thomas W]

What are the chances of 2 badges and a tag being found in the same house and NOT being connected? And how on earth do you know he only made it to the replacement battalion?

 

Maybe you should read up a bit on dogtags... as I said before, many groups have the ersatz unit tag with 1 or 2 added units...

You're not listening, so I'll repeat.

I was told that the two sleeve badges were from one flamethrower pioneer named Johann Meyer.

In reality, two badges and a dog tag from a man who made it to the replacement battalion were found in one house.

That's very different from "These two sleeve badges belonged to a flamethrower pioneer named Johann Meyer."

So we'll call the notion that both badges came from a flamethrower pioneer named Johann Meyer a "working theory" and not a fact, okay?

[Chris Boonzaier]

You are assuming Meyer was not a flamethrower Pionier based on what?

 

[Thomas W]

You are assuming Meyer was not a flamethrower Pionier based on what?

 

Again, you're not listening.

I never said that Meyer was not a flamethrower pioneer. I was TOLD that he was a flamethrower pioneer, but all we know about him is that he made it to the replacement battalion.

We have no evidence that he was a member of the Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment.

So the people who told me that he was a flamethrower pioneer ASSUMED it. They didn't base it on dog tags or documents.

You're really, REALLY big on everything being fully documented or else it's just a "working theory."

There's no documentation that Meyer was a flamethrower pioneer. Ergo, it's just a working theory.

I posted the photo of the guy with the badge on his greatcoat sleeve so that people with an interest in the topic could enjoy it. As so often happens, it became an occasion for a fight instigated by you.

How do you like your own rules of engagement used on you? Pretty unpleasant, isn't it?

This is why I haven't posted here in ages. And why I won't post again. Who needs this? I can't even post one photo without being grilled, and then it turns out that the chef bases his own conclusions on ASSUMPTIONS. All that screeching about how what I say isn't well-enough documented, and then look who jumps to conclusions based on ASSUMPTIONS.

Physician, heal thyself. Or grill thyself. On an open flame.

Look: Officers with enlisted men's badges on cruddy, rough cloth. The experts would call these badge fake, yet here they are in a period photo. Debate among yourselves. I'm going back to collecting.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Thomas W