Flammenwerfer! Flames, skulls and stuff

[Thomas W]

But! He survived the war and apparently found happiness. This is the back of the postcard I just showed you. For those of you who can't read German, it says something like:

"My Little Heart! At the time this photo was taken we unfortunately had not met. My heart did not know that it would overcome the war and... find you. Your darling."

Probably not the right temperament for a flamethrower operator, eh?

[Naxos]

Mei'm Herzele

addressed to a Liesel Hess

"to my little heart" The interesting and odd thing is, that it is written in south German slang "Schw?bisch" or Swabian.

He himself, or just his girl was from W?rttemberg or Baden.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Naxos

[Robin Lumsden]

What a great thread this is..................

Thomas. You're very generous with your information and photos. A lot of folks in your position would 'hide' the information until the book comes out.

Kudos to you! :beer:

[Robin Lumsden]

As a further aside, the Freikorps Gerth also wore a metal TK on the sleeve................

[Robin Lumsden]

As a further aside, the Freikorps Gerth also wore a metal TK on the sleeve................

although some preferred the cuff..............

[Robin Lumsden]

I still don't have the black cloth TK in hand yet.......... :banger:

[Thomas W]

Thomas. You're very generous with your information and photos. A lot of folks in your position would 'hide' the information until the book comes out.

Thanks. I've always thought it made more sense to share a little and show people that you've got the the goods rather than say "No! Mine!" The new book has over 300 photos and illustrations, so I don't think I'm detracting from its value.

Also, I have no control over how the photos are printed in the book. That's up to the editor. Here, I can zoom in and blow up images to my heart's content.

[jaeger7]

...

Gruss writes that the Grenadiers of SB 5 were authorized to wear a crown patch on the left lower arm. Does anyone have pictures of it in wear?

The badge for Sturm-Bataillon 5 was issued by the Crownprince. It was a crowned cypher "W" on an oval shield of fieldgrey cloth.

And here is the pic:

[Naxos]

The badge for Sturm-Bataillon 5 was issued by the Crownprince. It was a crowned cypher "W" on an oval shield of fieldgrey cloth.

And here is the pic:

That is a great image!

Thank you for showing

[Thomas W]

The badge was unofficial, so there are many different styles. They vary in size, too.

Here's something maybe people can help me with: In this photo of a Rohr flamethrower squad, the lance operator (Rohrf?hrer) has a field cap tucked into his belt. The cap has some kind of badge on it, very similar to an Austrian assault-troop badge. Can anybody identify it? I copied and pasted it into the upper right corner of the photo, after turning it 90 degrees.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Thomas W

[Thomas]

I'd take them in a minute! These are custom purchase straps and thus they are not going to conform exactly to sizes and construction of the issue pieces. I grant you that the blue backing is odd and I could not overlook it on an issue piece, but these are not issue boards. The deivices are similar to known examples. If someone would like to pass them along, I would be happy to relieve you of them. Chip

So they are private purchase? So a tailor sold a set of boards with fat sloppy piping, sewed one with white thread, the other with dark thread in two different methods? Remind to avoid that tailor I am not saying the straps are fake or the devices are fake, I am saying they do not belong together, someone has made these up using a 1800s great coat strap in my opinion.

I have 1915 pattern Pionier Leutnant boards with blue straps

Actually your boards are backed in black, it is the strap that is blue which is right for an uberrock. But for a NCO, who would be wearing field grey, blue backing and blue straps for the loop makes zero sence.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Thomas

[Chip]

So they are private purchase? So a tailor sold a set of boards with fat sloppy piping, sewed one with white thread, the other with dark thread in two different methods? Remind to avoid that tailor I am not saying the straps are fake or the devices are fake, I am saying they do not belong together, someone has made these up using a 1800s great coat strap in my opinion.

Actually your boards are backed in black, it is the strap that is blue which is right for an uberrock. But for a NCO, who would be wearing field grey, blue backing and blue straps for the loop makes zero sence.

Thomas,

Yes, these are private purchase pieces. Most boards you will see with this rank are. The issued examples are just issue enlisted straps with the braid added, as you would expect. I would agree that one would normally expect to see gray on the back side, especially when you consider that the officer's "MW" insignia was not authorized until October of 1916. But, there are many cases where private purchase items do not follow the norms. Besides, an 1880's greatcoat strap would be nothing like this. First, the overcoat straps were much wider (officially 6.5cm), while this one is in the range of the M15's (4.5cm). Secondly, they were blue/black and very much darker than this medium blue. Thirdly, I am fairly certain that this rank did not even exist in the 1880's.

Regardless, I think we will have to agree to disagree. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I still would be very happy to have this pair.

Chip

[joerookery]

the officer's "MW" insignia was not authorized until October of 1916.

Chip, what's source was that in? I need to find out more about those initials.

[Chip]

Joe,

I have two sources. First, are the pictures of the Probe pieces from the collection of the Bavarian Army Museum, Ingolstadt. Secondly, the information is contained in Kraus.

Chip

[Robin Lumsden]

I now (at last) have the black TK in hand and I am 100% sure that it is an original piece....either WW1 or Freikorps.

Whatever it is, the thing is a one-looker.

All the material is typical Imperial and the badge was clearly sewn together 90 years ago, not 90 days ago.

The wear, age, staining, fading, etc. etc. are all consistent with a very old multi-piece badge.

Despite the rough stitching on the reverse, the obverse is extremely neatly done, the stitching being almost invisible from the front.

The skull itself has a padded feel, presumably from the inserted red cloth.

In short, I'm delighted with the badge and it's another good eBay buy.

[Thomas W]

Robin, I've learned through my research to never say never. Just because we've yet to find official documentation of black-skull sleeve badges doesn't mean they weren't issued. And who's to say some unit didn't make up its own badges or decide to modify regulations as it saw fit?

Look at this flamethrower pioneer: He's wearing an M.1915 Bluse with long, old-style white Litzen, and his shoulder strap is field gray with a cypher on it--a crown, maybe. The strap should be black piped in red, and what's a Guard Pioneer doing with a crown on his shoulder strap?

It shouldn't be! Yet there it is.

[Chip]

Thomas,

I agree that the shoulder strap is the wrong pattern and the collar Litzen are the old style, so something is going on here. Do the others in the photo have similar uniform abnormalities? Try as I might, I can't make out anything distinct on that shoulder strap. An interesting photo, to be sure.

Chip

[Thomas W]

Chip, I have two photos of many of the same men. They're from the Experimental Company (Versuchs-Kompagnie) of the Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment.

Here's full photo No. 1. The only uniform anomaly, other than the ones in the outfit of Mr. Mustache, is on the man standing far left. He wears a Bluse with the short white Litzen mandated in March of 1915. The Litzen should be gray.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

Here's a closeup of the man on the left and the carbine rack, which shows the Troddel worn by the Experimental Company. I haven't identified the colors, but as you can see there appear to be three.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

Here's full photo No. 2, which depicts many of the same men, including Mr. Mustache (center). These two photos came from a Polish dealer who said they were from the family of a Polish pioneer serving in the flamethrower regiment.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

Here's a close-up of Mr. Mustache, still wearing the M.1915 Bluse with old-style Litzen and gray shoulder straps, although it's impossible to tell if the latter have any cyphers.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Did you hear about the Polish pioneer serving in the flamethrower regiment?

Rodney Dangerfield could have made a career on that opener!.... :-)

[Robin Lumsden]

Here's the badge in its new home................this shows the relative scale of the thing.

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin, I've learned through my research to never say never. Just because we've yet to find official documentation of black-skull sleeve badges doesn't mean they weren't issued. And who's to say some unit didn't make up its own badges or decide to modify regulations as it saw fit?

Thanks Thomas. These are my thoughts also.

Now I'll just have to be patient until a photo turns up showing the black TK in wear.

There must be a photo of it out there somewhere.................... :ninja:

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin, I've learned through my research to never say never. Just because we've yet to find official documentation of black-skull sleeve badges doesn't mean they weren't issued. And who's to say some unit didn't make up its own badges or decide to modify regulations as it saw fit?

There are my thoughts also.

Now I'll just have to be patient until a photo of the black TK in wear turns up.

There must be a photo of it out there, somewhere................ :ninja: