Fake gold half sovereign?

[bigjarofwasps]

Hi Guys,

Found this on Ebay, thought it might be of interest. It appears to be dated 1907, but has George V`s head on it?

Its listed on Ebay as -

Hi This Ring is in New New Condition

Ring Size I dont Know maybe a ' T '

6.8grms is total weight so 4 gramms of 22 and 2.8 of 9crt

The Ring Size is 22mm inside Measurment So Fairly big Finger

The Coin is Georg IVs or Georg IV5 and Dated 1907

What do we think, is it a fake? :speechless1:

[Guest Rick Research]

Is that "enough" to legally skate around counterfeiting laws?

(I thought Victoria IX was King in 1907.... )

[Mervyn Mitton]

If it is a modern copy - as they are turning them out in India and Turkey - then there will never be a known maker. Had it been made prior to 1922 - when Britain went off the gold standard - then technically, you could have been hanged.

[bigjarofwasps]

If it is a modern copy - as they are turning them out in India and Turkey - then there will never be a known maker. Had it been made prior to 1922 - when Britain went off the gold standard - then technically, you could have been hanged.

Interesting are there any recorded cases of anybody being hanged for counterfeiting sovereigns?

[bigjarofwasps]

Heres a few websites, I`ve come across covering fake/counterfeit sovereigns....

http://www.24carat.co.uk/counterfeitcoinsframe.html

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/fakes.html

http://www.goldsovereigns.co.uk/1920fakelo...tsovereign.html

[Mervyn Mitton]

Probably thousands over the past few hundred years. With the death penalty now abolished - apart from treason - they now send them to prison. The most serious 'usual' offence, was coin clipping. With coins mostly of gold or, silver, they used to clip edges off the coins - do that to 6 or 8 coins and you have the metal for another. This ,of course, is why we have milled edges to coins. When I was in the Met. police, we were often called by shopkeepers ( and market traders) when fakes were passed. They would always say - ' I must have been given it in change' - however, the offence is an 'absolute' one and it is enough to be in possession of only one coin or, note. Unless you had reason to suspect otherwise, then we took no further action - but, they lost the item.

If you think about it , the debasement of the currency is one of the most serious things that can happen to a Country - and all

countries treat it very seriously.

[Guest Rick Research]

"debasement of the currency is one of the most serious things that can happen to a Country - and all

countries treat it very seriously."

Unless--of course--it is the politicians doing it. And they define "treason."

Maybe things are different there, but even if outdated, coins here remain technically legal tender forever, so if one were to "replicate" a form which has not been struck in 100 years, it would still BE counterfeiting. The example above is, after all, not simply a generic jewelry design-- it is an attempt (albeit STUPID) to imply a bullion content that isn't there by masquerading as the Real Thing.

Would think THAT ought to bring on a visit from Persons In Authority. :catjava:

[Mervyn Mitton]

Rick - I've decided your just an 'old' cynic ! Put your trust in politicians - thery've got a living to make !!

If a coin or, note has been discontinued it is not counterfeiting - since no-one would be fooled. The offence would be theft by deception (if succesful) or, attempted theft by deception (if not). There is of course, still an offence of counterfeiting. One could also think of the offence of fraud.

[Guest Rick Research]

Struth.

"If a coin or, note has been discontinued it is not counterfeiting..."

Now that IS interesting. Not our laws at all. What--under those conditions-- would prevent somebody from faking coins AS coins (not quote unquote jewelry) and selling forgeries at coin shows?

Little things slip, then the next thing you know...... :catjava:

[Mervyn Mitton]

Then surely that is fraud - an offence defined ' as intending to gain a pecuniary advantage by deception'. I really don't think that your laws would be much different ? I would be interested now, to hear what some of our lawyers would say ?

[Guest Rick Research]

Ahhh, but to "prove" fraud, one would have to establish that INTENT preceded simple STUPIDITY which is not, alas, an Offense.

"But I didn't know, Officer (whine whine snivel)..." would be neatly taken care of by simple statutory Thou Shalt Not.

Which came first-- the lawyers or the self-exculpatory (nudge nudge wink wink) "wiggle room?"

Counterfeiting... anything... bothers me. It plagues all of our collecting hobbies. Currency is waaaay above that-- right up there with manufacturing "holy relics."

[Mervyn Mitton]

To prove counterfeiting would be much more difficult than fraud. You would have to link your suspect to the offense - i.e. you would need dies or, printing plates, paper - or, metal , and possibly samples that they had made or, used. To pass a forged item is called 'uttering'. That is not difficult to prove - it is an 'absolute' offence, so only one example is enough for arrest.

To prove fraud would be much simpler. The circumstances, the material used (coins or, paper) witnesses and that would be sufficient.

If counterfeiting was so easy to deal with, you wouldn't have the Treasury Dept. in the US. Mind you, that is America - we would send one uniformed P.C. to deal with the matter !!!

[JBFloyd]

Title 18, Section 485, relating to coins:

"Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph?

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both."

[Mervyn Mitton]

Thankyou Jeff - that's a good start. The operative words being 'current' and intent to commit fraud. That doesn't seem much different to the UK.

[Guest Rick Research]

No, that's legalese. ANY currency of The United States of America (as opposed, say, to the Confederate States of America or the Republic of Texas) REMAINS "current." Discontinued design doesn't mean no longer legal tender, any more than 100 year old stamps still can't be used at face value for postage.

I could go into a shop with a penny from 1837 and demand they take it. They might think I was crazy. They might call security. It might be worth 25 dollars (see Stupid Is Not An Offense). But "face value" is face value on currency of The United States.

I wouldn't try that with Continentals from the Revolution... but then those are likely now worth substantially over face too.

Every so often (living in a backwater ) I still get tattered old Silver Certificate paper money and the town library occasionally surprises me spitting out buffalo nickels from the copier machine change.

there was just a case in New York last week of a particularly dimwitted shop keeper being talked into making change for a 20 dollar coin. No such coin exists. I guess that's NOT counterfeiting, since there isn't a REAL coin in that denomination.

[Mervyn Mitton]

The Act that Jeff has shown, would seem to me, to be a lawyers dream. The first part does say - quite clearly ' made by any US mint ' - so I agree, Rick is probably right about the American coins,if they are forged. However, for foreign coins, my interpretation would be that forgery (or counterfeiting) would only occur if it was a current coin from the country being copied. This leaves it wide open - no wonder law is a good profession !

[The Monkey God]

This seems to becoming a `hot` topic pardon the pun.

Are you guys aware of this news letter?

http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/CCNindex.html

[Mervyn Mitton]

'Monkey God' - according to that interesting link you gave - 13 million ?1 coins in circulation are forged - and they say that at 1% that is too low ! Bring back the 'hanging, drawing and quartering' !! If it's my money they're taking I have no pity...

(p.s. nice likeness !!!)

[The Monkey God]

'Monkey God' - according to that interesting link you gave - 13 million ?1 coins in circulation are forged - and they say that at 1% that is too low ! Bring back the 'hanging, drawing and quartering' !! If it's my money they're taking I have no pity...

(p.s. nice likeness !!!)

I believe in days of old, the Saxon Lords, used to cut the `bits` off counterfieters, now theres a deterant if ever I heard one!!!! :rolleyes:

[peter monahan]

"What do you mean counterfeiting? You guys don't make three dollar bills!" - punch line to an old cartoon. I also recall, many eons ago, when Canada first issued the "coloured" (read "colourful") bills, the $20.00 note being the first. Some wag spent a half day on the street trying to get people, including an on-duty PC, to accept one, but with no luck. Stupidity cuts both ways. :rolleyes:

As to hanging, bobbing 'bit's and so on, I have a clear (though still possibly incorrect) memory of a medieval case which popped up in a course on the history of English crime and criminals. The wife of the house was issuing false coin. was in fact notorious for it, but when the law showed up she simply pointed them to her husband. Poor weak females were deemed incapable of such sophisticated crimes back then. Couldn't vote either. The punishment for debasing the king's coinage back then? Having molten lead poured into your ears. Ouch! :speechless1:

[bigjarofwasps]

Molten lead poured in your ears, or your bits bobbed, what a choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lambert]

Hello Everyone

I identified this example the half Sovereign "undated" What do you think .. 've seen something like this?

Please await a response from the experts ..

thank you
Lambert

Edited January 11, 2013 by lambert

[peter monahan]

I wouldn't buy it!

[lambert]

That's what I thought! .

thanks Peter !

Lambert

[peter monahan]

"Fools and their money are swiftly parted." is an old saying that doesn't get used, IMHO, nearly often enough these days! The walk among us!

Peter