Exile awards of the House Order of Hohenzollern

[Komtur]

... http://www.dhm.de/magazine/fotografen/tellgmann.html

Don?t know if they are related. But the Tellgmann photographer dynasty could have the possibility to bring a poor Stabsarzt cousin near to the Kaiser for medical service. ...

Indeed Dr. Karl Tellgmann was the son of the Hoffotograf Oscar Tellgmann, one of the famous Tellgmann brothers. I found him in the Stammliste der Kaiser Wilhelms-Akademie f?r das milit?r?rztliche Bildungswesen 1910 - a great source for my special interest.

Best regards, Komtur.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Komtur

[Kurt Donch]

Gentlemen,

Allow me to add some thoughts on the interesting subject of decorations awarded by former ruling families, chivalric associations and the like. Post-abdication awards seem to have been tolerated by the Weimar state and the Reichswehr. They also seem to have been tolerated in the early years of the TR, there obviously were a number of leading Nazis hungry for some big, flashy gongs. Legally, these were not of course "official" awards anymore, and the legal status of the orders etc. handed out was -and is - nothing more or less than a wearable token presented by a private citizen or a civil-law association. That they were highly prized by the recipients does not alter the legal situation.

As has been pointed out in this thread, even today a number of formerly ruling houses, as well as some pretenders, and any number of "chivalric" organisations hand out orders that in part correspond to orders already extant at the time, but in part are completely new creations. Many of these "chivalric" assoctians are nothing more than money scams pandering to their members' vanity. For paying a - sometimes quite substantial amount - of money, you get the "right" to attend social gatherings and strut around dressed up in white or black tie and sporting chains, sashes, stars and crosses. Some old chivalric/caritative associations are officially recognized, e.g. in Germany the Johanniterorden, and their badges may be worn even with Bundeswehr uniforms. For the others, and the former dynastic orders, not being official or officially recognized awards, in Germany you can wear as many as you like with civilian clothing, as long as the badges etc. by their design may not be mistaken for any decoration awarded by the Federal Republic or the L?nder.

BTW, another post-WWI awardee of the HOH Komthur was Franz Seldte, leader of the Stahlhelm and Reich minister in the Hitler government.

Best regards,

Kurt

[Komtur]

... Legally, these were not of course "official" awards anymore, and the legal status of the orders etc. handed out was -and is - nothing more or less than a wearable token presented by a private citizen or a civil-law association. That they were highly prized by the recipients does not alter the legal situation.

...

BTW, another post-WWI awardee of the HOH Komthur was Franz Seldte, leader of the Stahlhelm and Reich minister in the Hitler government. ...

First: As I stated before, I fully agree with that point of view.

Second: Thanks for this additional information. Where does it come from? When did Seldte got the HOH Komtur (or Komthur or Comthur ). If there is a picture with him and this order, could you please post it here?

Thanks, Komtur.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Komtur

[Kurt Donch]

Hi Komtur,

The picture I had in mind must be in John R. Angolia's "For F?hrer and Fatherland" - military awards of the third reich, 1st edition ca. 1980. I don't have the book with me, but I remember a rather good protrait of Seldte printed in the book because the author treated the stars on the F?hrerschulterriemen as an award.

Surely someone on this forum still has a copy of this book and can maybe post a scan?

Best regards,

Kurt

[Komtur]

K.,

Would you happen to have a good photos to compare "before" and "after" awards side by side, to show how they differ?

Thanks,

Les

It lasts some time to find pictures of Godet HOH3 in a quality, good enough for comparing. After doing that, I have to admit, I was to quick with my statement, that pre- and after-1918 Godet HOH are really different. On the contrary, at least as to be seen for the knight, they are very similar.

What I can show of Godet is:

1. HOH3 in silver gilded of Remmert (single and after 1918)

2. HOH3 in silver gilded of Tellgmann (on a bar and after 1918)

3. HOH3X in gold (single and before 1916)

4. HOH3X in silver gilded (on a bar shown here by Claudio, probably before 1918)

5. HOH3X in silver gilded (single and probably before 1918)

the front medaillon of 1. / 2. / 4.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Komtur

[Komtur]

The front Medaillon of 1. / 2. / 5.

[Komtur]

The front medaillon of 1. / 3.

[Komtur]

The reverse medaillon of 1. / 5. / 3.

[Komtur]

Makers marking of 1. / 2. / 4. / 5.

[Komtur]

The medaillons seems to be made in the same tool, obvious difference is only the engraving of the pre 1918 crosses. The difference in the size of the eagles is in my opinion only an artefact because of a different shape of the medaillon rings. The pre 1918 marking looks like impressed with single letters, the after 1918 in contrary seem to be one tool. There is also a change in the green enamel colour more to blue after 1918.

For the Komtur class I have no pictures of Godet marked pre 1918 items. If there are some out there, please show them here for comparing.

Best regards, Komtur.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Hi Komtur,

The picture I had in mind must be in John R. Angolia's "For F?hrer and Fatherland" - military awards of the third reich, 1st edition ca. 1980. I don't have the book with me, but I remember a rather good protrait of Seldte printed in the book because the author treated the stars on the F?hrerschulterriemen as an award.

Surely someone on this forum still has a copy of this book and can maybe post a scan?

Best regards,

Kurt

Thanks to a friend from the German forum SDA, here is Seldte with his exile HOH:

Edited June 8, 2009 by Komtur

[Wild Card]

An excellent presentation, Gentlemen.

Thank you. :cheers:

[David M]

An excellent presentation, Gentlemen.

Thank you.

I have a photo somewhere of the ??-wedding anniversary of the Imperial Crownprince-Couple where his longyear aide M?ldner wears a similar HHO2b. He only got a HHO3X during the war, so it must be exile as well. Will try and find it

regards

David

[Komtur]

I have a photo somewhere of the ??-wedding anniversary of the Imperial Crownprince-Couple where his longyear aide M?ldner wears a similar HHO2b. He only got a HHO3X during the war, so it must be exile as well. Will try and find it

regards

David

That would bei very fine! In that case, I expect a HOH2b with X am Ring. I have such a picture shown here in the GMIC some times before, unfortunately I don?t know, who he is:

Edited June 9, 2009 by Komtur

[RAO]

Look also at the birthday-badge that fits well with the theme after WI. Regards Mike

[David M]

That would bei very fine! In that case, I exspect a HOH2b with X am Ring. I have such a picture shown here in the GMIC some times before, unfortunately I don?t know, who he is:

Maybe another (former) aide de camp to a member of the Imperial House? There must be a list somewhere. It is not M?ldner, that is for sure.

regards

David