Spanish Cross Question

[Guest Craig Gottlieb]

There, I managed.

[Scott]

The front looks like a match for a CEJ-marked cross. Jacques did a brief study on Juncker crosses in the Spanish forum awhile back: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1072&hl=Juncker

[Guest Craig Gottlieb]

May I ask about a retail value for a cross such as this, without the messed-up dedication? I'm trying to price this, and don't frankly know what "retail" would be for cross such as this. Thank you all for the input.

[Naxos]

Greg, what do you want to know?

The cross seems to be original but, as it has been established, is pretty much destroyed by the bogus inscription.

Look:

1. No one alive would scratch their birthday on the back of such an award.

2. What is the meaning of the 1938 birthday date? (The cross was not awarded until June 1939)

3. For all the other points see page 1 of this thread.

I don't believe that you, with all your experience in handling German Awards, really think that there is a chance for the inscription to be period.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Naxos

[Guest Craig Gottlieb]

Certainly, not any more (the inscription). I've seen all sorts of crudeer-than-this names on the backs of medals, but these names were meant to sort of 'mark' the item as belonging to the soldier, in case he lost it. I have a pair of Pilot Badges on my site that is a good example. But I do think that this inscription is not original, although I was hoping to find some knowledge that might have corroborated the "what" and "why" of it all. Certainly the badge is ruined for a badge collector, so hopefully a uniform guy will find it pleasing enough. In fact, I have a Luft General's tunic with a German Cross in Gold loop set that this cross might look good on. Anyway, any idea of a value, in "unmolested" condition?

[Naxos]

Certainly, not any more (the inscription).

I've seen all sorts of crudeer-than-this names on the backs of medals, but these names were meant to sort of 'mark' the item as belonging to the soldier, in case he lost it. ...

Exactly, like this for example:

The difference is that it neither distract from nor attempt to add to the value.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Naxos

[Guest Craig Gottlieb]

Exactly. Here is my set. My "Bruns" German Cross in Gold" grouping had the same "chicken-scratch" ID on the reverse.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Craig Gottlieb

[Guest Rick Research]

There is certainly a difference between a recipient wearer scratching an ID in case his name and Feldpost number would help identify his broken mangled corpse and a Wicked Monkey trying to mock up a celebrity piece for more fraudulent cash.

But I wouldn't pay anything--at all--extra for REAL "chicken scratch" either, unless it came directly from the hands of the recipient and THAT was signed and sealed FROM the recipient for the NEXT owner, as part of a complete and unaltered, documented group.

Anybody can scratch anything on anything any time. 1916... 1943... 2008.

I once had an April 1945 EK1 that had been vaulted--with pliers directly from the hands of its recipient. When I asked him WHAT he was thinking he just laughed and said he wanted it to look like his dad's from 1917 and-- he had no idea that the war would be over in 2 weeks. Great story--true--but a very negative effect if one is only interested in re-sale and not a piece of history from a real, live PERSON.

Since it has been many years since I collected Third Reich, I am well out of date on Market Forces--

Again: what is a deliberately damaged piece "worth" with a ruinous fantasy engraving, versus an untouched original piece?

[Guest Craig Gottlieb]

That is a great story - the Iron Cross and the pliers!

[Ulsterman]

You know, this entire thread reminds me of why collecting TR is such a mine field and why I rarely frequent the WAF these days.

I think of everything in terms of odds. I reckon this piece has been devalued by the inscription. It might have been done by a family member or someone as a "permanent memorial" (I have engraved medals to KIA family members myself as a permanent memorial)

...but with an item like this, it quacks, smells, looks and swims like the proverbial (bad) duck... .

[Stan]

Craig,

Despite all these doubting Thomases your badge is an honest example of an original "900" "CEJ" Spanish Cross with Swords in Silver. I find it highly unlikely that someone other than the recipient would have engraved the details on the reverse.

In my opinion you should forward it to Hermann Historica for auction where it should make approx ?1200.

Stan

[Ulsterman]

Given the cess-pool of people who deal in TR, I believe it is highly, generously, fantastically over-optimistic to think that "anyone but the recipient" would have engraved it. Doubting Thomas I may be, but no fool am I with my money.

LOTS and LOTS and LOTs of people-VERY BAD people- engrave all sorts of things onto badges, SS rings etc. for PROFIT!

This has been going on since the early 1960s and without IRON CLAD provenance, it is AT BEST a BIG and VERY DANGEROUS GAMBLE that this is an original piece-in my opinion.

This has the classic template of an antique fake/con job:

1. rare item

2. made even rarer /special by engraving

3. lacks any provenance

4. easily made compared to say, a Rembrandt painting (and those are faked too)

5. Big Bucks if real (profit motive)

6. engraving style is easy to create (block letters) and not uncommon in post war pieces and can be done with a $35 engraving tool. I myself do this for the state for our Gold Star medals once a month.

7. Lack of oxidation/patina on reverse.

(cite: the Antiques Roadshow newsletter on silver engraving fakes from @ 2002, see also the Skinner's Guide to silver engraving forgery)

I would say it's worth $100, IF that was an original badge and I would not trust that it is without handling it and having at LEAST two others I know and trust look at it.

In my opinion, the post-war engraving has ruined the badge as effectively as if someone had run over it with their car.

Perhaps you may wish to shop this around for second and third opinions at other more inviting and perhaps knowledgeable TR forums-like the WAF?

By the way, just for your own personal information, I am the guy who first started running these badges through NMR machines at MIT 11 years ago. Weights, measures and even a bit of chemical testing are not unusual for ancient coins that sell for FAR less than 1,200 UK pounds (@$2,000).

[Naxos]

Craig,

Despite all these doubting Thomases your badge is an honest example of an original "900" "CEJ" Spanish Cross with Swords in Silver. I find it highly unlikely that someone other than the recipient would have engraved the details on the reverse.

In my opinion you should forward it to Hermann Historica for auction where it should make approx ?1200.

Stan

It is episodes like this that will prevent you from rehabilitating your reputations

[dond]

I agree. You'd probably get a more definative answer on WAF.

[Guest Rick Research]

But I'm a nicer person than YOU guys.

At least "... a couple of dealers/collectors that I respect, but I would rather let the piece stand on its own (or fall on its own) than name-drop." ... those Undropped Names who gave this their exalted thumbs up can still skate. I'm sure they will be relieved.

Hermann Historica is generally quite rightly regarded, by people who have to pay attention to how their money is spent, as the Manion's Of Europe.

Not having fallen off any turnip trucks lately, or had my mama done raised no fools, I can come to only one conclusion

that GMIC has been picked as a backwater full of rustics who don't know any better to try out moving a dodgy piece at a vastly inflated price.

Unhappily, given the perpetual influx of Must Have Instant Bragging Trophies from careless new buyers easily impressed by sales schtick rather than doing their homework, this will without doubt result in a sale to somebody.

Its probably already too late for that somebody.

But due to the Magic Of Googlesearching, it won't be--hopefully-- for a FUTURE somebody as this gets fobbed off on and on as "highly unlikely that someone other than the recipient would have engraved the details on the reverse."

Personally, my immortal soul isn't priced that low. Neither is my personal honour nor my reputation.

Some people like evidence. Other people are enraptured by fairy tales. To each his own.

[Ulsterman]

I agree. You'd probably get a more definative answer on WAF.

It would be fun to watch.

Indeed, PLEASE submit this for the WAF's consideration...please!

[Bill Dienna]

The term "Gilding the lilly" comes to mind here.

In the category of "Same church, different pew":

A native german collector once told me of meeting with a former Luftwaffe officer who agreed to sell his decorations, including a Spanish Cross, on the reverse of which he had had engraved his name and award date. They were sitting in the veteran's home chatting after the agreement on the terms, when the veteran picked up the Spanish Cross, excused himself, and dissappeared. A few moments later was heard the sound of a grinding wheel from the basement. No engraving on THAT cross ever again!