The Royal Marines

[coldstream]

Leigh

Your right it could well be swords and not scissors on the trade mark, I will see what I can find out about the company and report back.

Here is another photo which just arrived showing what appears to be a Great War veteran festooned with equipment onboard ship.

Edited May 16, 2010 by coldstream

[leigh kitchen]

Nice photo - playng to the camera with all the gear on? (I have a photo of a Coldsteam Gurdsman festooned in all kinds of kit at RUC Sprngfield, from 1976).

Is t possible to see if he's spike or ball on the helmet?

And is that "NORMAN" written on one of the equipment straps?

[coldstream]

Its the ball top to the helmet and you're quite correct on the name, its 'Norman'.

[coldstream]

Regarding the trademark in post 122, an internet search reveals the following information. In 1913 Buttons Ltd had three manufacturing sites in Birmingham, Portland St, Worstone Lane and Clissold St making buttons, buckles and stampings. Trademarks included 'three domes' and crossed swords.The company now forms part of Francis Sumner engineering. Well spotted Leigh :cheers:

[leigh kitchen]

"Three domes" - I have'nt looked at any of my button collection for years (now relegated to a jumbled box), but I remember that mark - always looked like three Bishop's mitres to me.

[SMLE]

A RMLI Private, ca 1900.

Hello Saint,

My Wife's Great Grandfather Frederick White was in the RMLI between 1893 and 1915. Below is the only picture we have of him.

However I do think he bears a striking similarity to the private in your post. The shape of the nose and nostrils, the eyebrows one arched the other straighter, the shape of the eyes, one ear sticking out the other flat and the width of the neck. The only thing that seems a bit out is the earlobes to me.

He was at Walmer in 1894 where your picture was taken and at Deal a mile or two up the coast between 1903 and 1915. My picture was taken in about 1914 so twenty years or so and the camera angles could account for the differences I think.

Do you have any more details on your photo?

I'll post some extracts of his service record below for anyone that is interested.

Many thanks.

Carl

[SMLE]

Following on from the above, Fred White joined the RMLI in 1893 and served over 22 years until 1915.

He served in several ships initially, including HMS Penelope which was the Guard ship at Simonstown at the Cape of Good Hope and aboard the battleship HMS Canopus during her service with the Mediteranian fleet.

In 1903 he returned to the RMLI Depot at Deal where he spent the rest of his service.

[SMLE]

Cont..

On 17th July 1914 Fred was "Discharged having completed 21 years service". This was not the best date to be discharged from the services and barely having made it to 2 weeks as a civilian Fred was recalled on 2nd August 1914.

He served at Deal until 9 Nov 1915 when he was "Discharged Invalided" due to his failing eyesight.

Interestingly Fred was one of the first servicemen to be assisted by the St Dunstan's charity for blind ex servicemen and his family were extremely gratefull for the help. They named one of their sons, my wife's grandfather, Arthur Dunstan White and he was always known as Dunstan. Keeping the tradition going we've given our son the middle name Dunstan, I'm sure he'll thanks me for it hen he's older!

[SMLE]

Cont...

Fred served his over 22 years as a private apart from a 3 week period in June 1900 when he made the heady rank of Lance Corporal.

He amassed 5 good conduct badges and the LSGC medal.

He seems to have spent much of his time at Deal employed as a groom to various officers including J H Swanton the Colonel Commandant, his marriage certificate in 1904 shows him as a carriage driver!

I hope this has been of interest. Compared to some of the RMLI records I've seen with numerous promotions, demotions and courts martial his seems fairly mundane!

Carl

[MadJackFlash]

Another Royal Marine image from my archives.

Definitely Gib - that is the Moorish Castle on the rock halfway up

[Mervyn Mitton]

MJF - welcome to GMIC - you could have chosen a shorter name ................. Mervyn

[Chris Boonzaier]

MM.. MJF shares the honour of of a 12 letter screen name with you... but you take up more space with the space between the "n M" :-)

[leigh kitchen]

The latest RM acquisition. Post 1923 amalgamation of RMLI & RMA, RM Colour Sergeants badge on a 1927 dated tunic.

Recent discussion on another forum raises the possibility that the silver laurel leaves as known to have been worn on RMLI badges & as shown on this RM example were replaced by gold leaves by the mid 1930's.

I don't know as yet what the "NSPTP" stamp in the lining signifies.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_2015_03/c_(2).jpg.291808a752e32860c66ae3bf1bf26a0d.jpg

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_2015_03/c_(3).jpg.f713d8c52622f605c17c60365f4bff3a.jpg

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_2015_03/e_(2).jpg.bdcdde185804051ff4d70f25b2b34b70.jpg

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_2015_03/c_(2).jpg.291808a752e32860c66ae3bf1bf26a0d.jpg

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_2015_03/c_(3).jpg.f713d8c52622f605c17c60365f4bff3a.jpg

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_2015_03/e_(2).jpg.bdcdde185804051ff4d70f25b2b34b70.jpg

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

some Bullion fades like that? maybe it was gold?

[leigh kitchen]

Don't think so, but I know what you mean - I have some chevrons off a 1902 dated tunic that have changed from gold to a blued steel appearance.

If these have faded then they've done it a very uniform manner. Somebody else has told & shown me a similar RMLI badge they have which also has silver leaves.

Now I compare the silver with the gold bullion,the leaves are a blue/grey silversilver colour, matching the silver on the silver & gold globe.

[leigh kitchen]

It's been suggested that the markings may be for "Naval Stores Portsmouth".

[leigh kitchen]

Hi,

some Bullion fades like that? maybe it was gold?

I've changed my mind - the leaves may have traces of gold on them, I'll have a closet look in good day light.

Interestingly only one belt hook is fitted, on the left, the side a bayonet would be worn on.

Surprisingly there are no indications of any skill at arms or other arm badges having been fitted. There is very minor wear to the tunic, the mark of a blamcoed belt, medal ribbon loops stitched on the left breast - four medals perhaps. so could have been a WWI trio and a Naval LSGC.

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[leigh kitchen]

I've decided that the laurel leaves were originally gold. there are small traces of gold discernible.

Here's a badge by the same manufacturer. by the look of itit. the leaves are a definite gold colour.  

The backing is designed to be sewn in to the shoulder seam. this one has been removed from a tunic but at least it hasn't been trimmed to an oval to make it neater and easier to display.

 

[jf42]

 

The 49th Foot amalgamated with the 66th Foot in 1881 to form the Berkshire Regiment & following other amalgamations & changes of title was in 2007 amalgamated into a new regiment, The Rifles.

 

 

 

 

 

​I understand that at one stage, I think post-1918, the Royal Berkshire Regiment included a coil of rope in its China Dragon cap badge to commemorate the 49th Regiment's period of service as marines with the Royal Navy.

 

On another Royal Marines topic.  Is anyone familiar with the story of Henry Shipton, the only Royal Marine to receive the Waterloo medal? He was present in the battle with the 4th King' s Own, having been attached to the 4th in 1814 when in North America and with his transfer from the Marines to the Army as an Ensign in the 4th KO imminent.

[leigh kitchen]

The rope was worn on officers boss badges until amalgamation into the D.E.R.R.s. it continued in the design of the new regiments cap badge.

Henry Shipton seems a familiar name. but I couldn''t have said why - sounds interesting.

[jf42]

Here is the Wikipedia page on him. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Noble_Shipton

 

There are several unfounded statements there but it provides a general outline of Shipton's short life. Survived Waterloo at 17. DIed of fever in the W.Indies at 23.

[leigh kitchen]

I've checked "Britain's Sea Soldiers. a History of the Royal Marines" by Col. G. Field. RMLI. ( 3 volumes, published 1924, )'hoping to find reference to Shipton. but can't.

Interesting mention of an old Marine Private , Johm Sudbury recording Napoleon''s boarding of HMS Bellaraphon on 15 July 1815_ and a claim that a young Napoleon applied for a commission in the British Marines.

Edited April 20, 2015 by leigh kitchen

[jf42]

I've checked "Britain's Sea Soldiers. a History of the Royal Marines" by Col. G. Field. RMLI. ( 3 volumes, published 1924, )'hoping to find reference to Shipton. but can't.

Interesting mention of an old Marine Private , Johm Sudbury recording Napoleon''s boarding of HMS Bellaraphon on 15 July 1815_ and a claim that a young Napoleon applied for a commission in the British Marines.

​I wonder if his transfer to to the 4th King's Own was so far advanced that by June 1815 it was merely a matter of the paperwork being completed and, although his commission as Ensign was not recorded until August 1815,  he was no longer regarded as Royal Marines personnel.

[Paul_1957]

Here is the Wikipedia page on him. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Noble_Shipton

 

There are several unfounded statements there but it provides a general outline of Shipton's short life. Survived Waterloo at 17. DIed of fever in the W.Indies at 23.

The Wikipedia story that Shipton was the only Royal Marine to receive the Waterloo Medal is false.  When Shipton fought at the battle of Waterloo he was officially no longer a member of the Royal Marines.  His resignation from the Royal Marine corps had been accepted by the Admiralty at the end of May 1815. 

Immediately upon Shipton's return to the UK from the United States in 1815 he had submitted a letter resigning his commission in the Royal Marines.  He was anticipating being commissioned in the Army having obtained "a strong endorsement" from Major-General Lambert. When the 4th Foot embarked for the Netherlands in early June 1815 Shipton accompanied that regiment as a gentleman Volunteer.  He fought at Waterloo as a Volunteer; he was neither a Royal Marine or an Ensign.  Shipton's commission as an Ensign in the 4th Foot is dated 3 August 1815.  He was appointed in place of Ensign Blagrave who had been promoted to Lieutenant on the same day.  Despite Shipton's medal being issued to him with the rank of Ensign on the rim he was actually still only a Volunteer on 18 June 1815.

In the National Archives in London there is correspondence dated 27 June 1815 from Shipton's father to the Military Secretary pleading for his son to be granted a commission in the Army.  Shipton's father was fearful that in any "speedy peace" his son "would be thrown upon the world without half-pay either from the Army or Marines...".  Included in this correspondence is a letter from the Admiralty Office dated 31 May 1815 to the Military Secretary which states "that no objection exists in this Department to the appointment of 2d Lieut Henry Noble Shipton to a Regiment of the Line, their Lordships being pleased to accept his resignation of his Commission in the Royal Marine Corps".  This correspondence is held in WO 31/425 (Commander in Chief's Memoranda).

Paul



 

[jf42]

Thanks Paul. I shall pass that on to the interested party.

JF