George Hammerton Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Just wondering where I could find out some more information about iron crosses awarded post world war I for actions by the Freikorps.I think I'm right in thinking these are quite rare?.......there's nothing on the internet about them.....Any information would be much appreciated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I've encountered a very few over many long years. The fact that these were illegal to award for action unrelated to the Great War after 11 November 1918 did not keep them from being issued nonetheless.Problem is, the ONLY way to determine that is to find the award documents. There were so many delayed "catch up" awards processed after the war that unless a document was issued BY a Freikorps, there is no way now to prove that it actually WAS a Freikorps award. A 1919 or 1920 date isn't enough, since virtually all of those were demobilization processing like this one--More "common," if I can even use that word, are Wound Badge documents for Freikorps actions. But there is neither statutory nor any other official distinction for de facto post-war awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 My father was awarded his EK II in 1921, issued by the Ministry of War. He fought thru 3 1/2 years of the war, volunteered to go to Gallipoli, where he caught malaria, and then joined the flame-thrower service, most likely as a volunteer, when he got back to Germany. He then was wounded four times in combat, twice at Verdun, twice at Reims. But his company was isolated from its command structure, which went up to the regiment and then to the OHL, with no other FW unit for say 60 miles, and the command within the company was corrupt, and there were other serious things allowed by the CO, and my father had a very bad attitude, he hated them, and he (and others) shot and killed the corrupt and cowardly company CO, and he shot a sergeant during live-fire manuvers, and kicked another sergeant in the face with his hobnails under circumstances that led to the sergeant being put up on charges. So he hardly was the most popular soldier with the company command. (He was very smart, had a Gymnasium education and had partially completed technical college, had six languages, his father was a staff officer, and he knew how to structure incidents so as to have a good chance to get away with mischief.) So he never was promoted past Pionier, although he led a Trupp, and therefore should have been a Gefreiter or an Unteroffizier, and he never got a EK II during the war, despite lots of fighting and four wounds. He did get his wound badge, which I have. (They could hardly deny him that.) Even his Militaer=Pass is weird. He was in a Freikorps within a few weeks of the end of the war, used the FW in fighting in Berlin, and later joined the Schwartze Reichswehr. But I do not recall seeing anything on the certificate for the EK II about the Freikorps (It is buried in archival storage), and I am assuming that his award was simply "catch-up" for wartime service. Any thoughts?Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Sounds typical of the delayed processing ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Sounds typical of the delayed processing ones.My (inexpert) thought entirely. I guess there was a formula for an EK II; months at the front, wounds, probably achieved rank, possibly elite units, etc. Pop was also assigned to Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) several times at Verdun, for providing additional FW support for attacks, as well as Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer). Without the subjective stuff (like "offing" the Coy. CO), he would seem to be a good fit. His father got the EK II and EK I within months of the war starting in Belgium.Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 My father was awarded his EK II in 1921, issued by the Ministry of War. He fought thru 3 1/2 years of the war, volunteered to go to Gallipoli, where he caught malaria, and then joined the flame-thrower service, most likely as a volunteer, when he got back to Germany. He then was wounded four times in combat, twice at Verdun, twice at Reims. ................and he never got a EK II during the war, despite lots of fighting and four wounds. He did get his wound badge, which I have. (They could hardly deny him that.) Even his <i>Militaer=Pass</i> is weird. Bob Lembke It is worth pointing out here that his standing with his commander, officers in his unit etc would have had little influence on him getting the EK or not. The Garde Reserve Pionier Regiment was not authorised to make, or approve any EK awards. Awards were made by a commanding general, in the case of the FW soldiers, the commander of the Division or Korps they were attached to DURING tha action. This as we know was usually a zillion miles away from base. So if a FW soldier took part in an action and was awarded the EK, Reddemann and co would have found out about it waaaay after the event. I doubt also that they would be able to influence a general in who he awards the crosses to. The logical process would have been... FW men take part in an attack with the III. Btl. IRXXX. Commander of the III. Btl. cites men for their actions, regimental commander makes recomendations for the award and sends it up to the division (or Korps). The General approves the awards, the men get their crosses. 2 weeks later Pionier XXX walks into the admin office of the FW base and says "I got a cross, there is nothing you can do about it because a full general awarded it to me." and... that was that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 <!--quoteo(post=347890:date=Jun 7 2009, 11:39 :name=Rick Research)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rick Research @ Jun 7 2009, 11:39 ) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=347890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess there was a formula for an EK II It's my belief that every German soldier who was wounded in action (before the creation of the Wound Badge) received the EK2. In WW2, the EK2 was mandatory for every soldier who received the Wound Badge in Silver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIR Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Hi, here an example of an EK1 document dated March 1919 (awarded October 1918). Best regards, Jens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 It's my belief that every German soldier who was wounded in action (before the creation of the Wound Badge) received the EK2. In WW2, the EK2 was mandatory for every soldier who received the Wound Badge in Silver. It is more true to say in WW1 guys who were invalided out of the service got a EK2, many guys were wounded and did not get an EK before the end of the war. They were guys who probably applied and often got after the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 It's my belief that every German soldier who was wounded in action (before the creation of the Wound Badge) received the EK2. In WW2, the EK2 was mandatory for every soldier who received the Wound Badge in Silver. Now THAT is an interesting statement. I would VERY much like to see evidence of this. The number of silver level awards in WW2 was enormous-there were well over 1 million amputees alone. There's been some serious academic work done on German WW2 casualties and the statistical breakdowns of who/what/when/where and if that is true I reckon that means the estimated number of awarded EK2s just doubled or tripled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi Ulster, I had found and translated the article about this on WAF about 5-7 years ago. If was an order that can around in the last half of the war (if I remember it dated from the last half of the war. Usually awards had to be approved by the guys division, but guys wounded on a "silver Level" were usually in hospitals in the homeland. In these cases the military districts could award them an EK2 without going through the difficult process of getting a citation and authorization from the division. Usually signed by the stellv. General of the district. Silver justified the EK2, no need to seek a reason. I dont think it would increase the number of EKs in the stats as I assume these awards are better documented than the ones made at a division at the front. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lumsden Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 As an aside, all doctors in charge of military hospitals were authorised to award the EK2 in WW2, without reference to higher authority. All these hospitals had large stocks of EK2s on hand. I don't think I have ever seen a photo of a holder of the WW2 Wound Badge in Silver who did not also have the EK2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 As an aside, all doctors in charge of military hospitals were authorised to award the EK2 in WW2, without reference to higher authority. Hi, I would not agree on that one. I have traded them all off when I got rid of my WW2 stuff so i dont have the docs and proofs at hand, but you NEVER see a WW2 EK doc signed by a doctor. Although the award was more or less a formality, it still lay in the hands of a general. For that reason the docs are signed/approved by a higher authority than the hospital. A side criteria was that the awardee must be "clean", ie. no question that he was running away when he got his award, I assume the higher authority also checked this. It is probable on occasion that a doctor handed over the cross itself, but we must distinguish between the guy awarding the cross and the guy handing it out. best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Hi, just happened across this while looking for something else. Doctors could NOT award EKs... for soldiers badly wounded and meriting a silver wound badge, there was an automatic award (as long as there were no negative reports from the unit) but in the cases where the guy was in hospital back in germany it was made by the Stellvertreter for the commander of the Wehrbezirk. Bst Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Very interesting information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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