France Meet G?n?ral m?dicin Xavier Sainz (1902-1986)

[Claudio]

Dear forumites,

I would like to show a nice group of ribbon bars and medals belonged to g?n?ral m?dicin Xavier Sainz (1902-1986).

I'd really appreciate any additional information about g?n. Sainz military career!

Thank you very much for your attention...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

Detail of the big ribbon bar...

Here is the description of the orders (please feel free to correct me):

? Ordre national de la L?gion d?Honneur, Commandeur

? Croix de Guerre 1939 ? 1945

? Croix de Guerre des Th??tres d'Op?rations Ext?rieurs (1921)

? M?daille des ?vades (1926) ??? I am not sure

? Croix du Combattant (1930)

? M?daille d?Outre-Mer / M?daille coloniale (1893-1962), Extr?me Orient

? M?daille comm?morative de la Guerre 1939-1945 (1946), France/Afrique/Lib?ration

? M?daille comm?morative de la Campagne d'Indochine (1953)

? Ordre de l??toile Noire, Commandeur (1889-1963)

? Ordre du Dragon d'Annam, Officier (1886-1950)

? Ordre des Palmes Acad?miques, Officier (1808/1955)

? Ordre National du M?rite, Commandeur (1963)

? Ordre de l'?toile d'Anjouan, Commandeur (1874-1963)

? Ordre du Million d??lephant et du Parasol Blanc

? ???

? M?rite Congolais, Commandeur

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited June 14, 2009 by Claudio

[Claudio]

Medal bar

[Claudio]

some insignia

[Claudio]

more insignia

[Claudio]

more insignia

[Claudio]

more...

[Claudio]

TOE in the box, hand written (Mekong, Colonel Sainz)

[Hendrik]

? Ordre national de la L?gion d'Honneur, Commandeur

? Croix de Guerre 1939 ? 1945

? Croix de Guerre des Th??tres d'Op?rations Ext?rieurs (1921)

? M?daille des ?vades (1926) ??? I am not sure

? Croix du Combattant (1930)

? M?daille d'Outre-Mer / M?daille coloniale (1893-1962), Extr?me Orient

? M?daille comm?morative de la Guerre 1939-1945 (1946), France/Afrique/Lib?ration

? M?daille comm?morative de la Campagne d'Indochine (1953)

? Ordre de l'?toile Noire, Commandeur (1889-1963)

? Ordre du Dragon d'Annam, Officier (1886-1950)

? Ordre des Palmes Acad?miques, Officier (1808/1955)

? Ordre National du M?rite, Commandeur (1963)

? Ordre de l'?toile d'Anjouan, Commandeur (1874-1963)

? Ordre du Million d'?lephant et du Parasol Blanc

? ???

? M?rite Congolais, Commandeur

Hello Claudio,

I think you're right about the M?daille des Evad?s.

On the other hand : for the French National Merit Order to be in that place in the ribbon group would be a mistake. It may well be the Cambodian National Merit Order ...

The one but last ribbon is of the Nichan-El-Iftikar Order (Tunisian) whereas the last ribbon is not Congolese but of the Civil Merit Order of the T'hai Federation (Vietnam).

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Claudio]

Hello Claudio,

I think you're right about the M?daille des Evad?s.

On the other hand : for the French National Merit Order to be in that place in the ribbon group would be a mistake. It may well be the Cambodian National Merit Order ...

The one but last ribbon is of the Nichan-El-Iftikar Order (Tunisian) whereas the last ribbon is not Congolese but of the Civil Merit Order of the T'hai Federation (Vietnam).

Cheers,

Hendrik

Thanks Hendrik, for your correction.

I am not sure about the Cambodian National Merit Order... the blue ribbon in Sainz' ribbon bar looks totally different from this order (look : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Order_of_Cambodia ).

I corrected the list like that:

? Ordre national de la L?gion d?Honneur, Commandeur

? Croix de Guerre 1939 ? 1945

? Croix de Guerre des Th??tres d'Op?rations Ext?rieurs (1921)

? M?daille des ?vades (1926)

? Croix du Combattant (1930)

? M?daille d?Outre-Mer / M?daille coloniale (1893-1962), Extr?me Orient

? M?daille comm?morative de la Guerre 1939-1945 (1946), France/Afrique/Lib?ration

? M?daille comm?morative de la Campagne d'Indochine (1953)

? Ordre de l??toile Noire, Commandeur (1889-1963)

? Ordre du Dragon d'Annam, Officier (1886-1950)

? Ordre des Palmes Acad?miques, Officier (1808/1955)

? ???

? Ordre de l'?toile d'Anjouan, Commandeur (1874-1963)

? Ordre du Million d??lephant et du Parasol Blanc

? Ordre de Nichan Iftikhar, Tunisie (Ordre de la fiert?), Commandeur

? Ordre du m?rite civil Tha? (1950-1954), cr?? par le conseil de la f?d?ration Tha?, Commandeur

Ciao,

Claudio

[922F]

Very nice group! Suspect the blue officer ribbon represents the French Order of Public Health [Ordre de la Sant? Publique, 1938], especially as he was a g?n?ral m?dicin. The National Order of Merit replaced the Order of Public Health in 1963/4.

[Hendrik]

Claudio, the link you mention is for the Royal Order of Cambodia, not for the Cambodian National Merit Order

922F, you may well be right in your identification.

Shouldn't the ribbons of the Palmes Acad?miques and the Public Health/French National Merit Order precede the Colonial orders' ribbons ?

If the blue ribbon were the French Order of National Merit, I think its proper place would be immediately after the L?gion d'Honneur ribbon ...

[Claudio]

Claudio, the link you mention is for the Royal Order of Cambodia, not for the Cambodian National Merit Order

922F, you may well be right in your identification.

Shouldn't the ribbons of the Palmes Acad?miques and the Public Health/French National Merit Order precede the Colonial orders' ribbons ?

If the blue ribbon were the French Order of National Merit, I think its proper place would be immediately after the L?gion d'Honneur ribbon ...

I also think it must have been some kind of Colonial order...

@Hendrik: Do you have a picture of the Cambodian National Merit Order, showing the color of the ribbon?

ciao,

Claudio

[922F]

I also think it must have been some kind of Colonial order...

@Hendrik: Do you have a picture of the Cambodian National Merit Order, showing the color of the ribbon?

ciao,

Claudio

Gentlemen,

Claudio, if by Cambodian National Merit Order you mean the Royal Order of Cambodia, a solid blue ribbon certainly would be an innovation. [Megan's website, among others, illustrates both Royal Order of Cambodia ribbons.] Excepting a possible Khymer Rouge award--what is the Cambodian National Merit Order? An order with this name is not documented under the former royal-French colonial, Lon Nol 'republic', various Sihanouk government and regency, or present regime. I believe Hendrik makes the point.

Usual French precedence would have the Palmes Academiques before the Public Health [Order under basic control of Ministry/Minister of Health; ministerial orders ranked by foundation date] followed by colonial orders. Sainz' period of activity would appear to preceed 1963/4 and, in any case, his status after 1963/4 would appear to merit more than an officier of National Merit Order. [The tomb of SAINZ Xavier (1902-1986) M?decin g?n?ral - is located in Paris, Montparnasse (75) according to www.mail-archive.com/geneamarine@yahoogroupes.fr/msg00473.html .]

That said, some French ribbon groups [especially those of retired offciers] seem to be mounted in peculiar precedence--perhaps at the wish of the officer, perhaps as a mistake by the person mounting the ribbons. Maybe his times in Africa and Annam were special to him.

This ensemble reflects service in many parts of the French colonial empire of a period most likely before, during and after WWII. That's one clue, perhaps, why the Public Health Order seems the most likely candidate for the blue officer ribbon. I suppose one could offer the Finnish Rose Order and maybe a few others but placement argues against that potential.

French archives are difficult to penetrate -- maybe a French member has more information on Sainz?

[Hendrik]

Conflicting information seems to be available on the Cambodian Order of National Merit : on the one hand, I found reference of this award in Guido Rosignoli's book "Ribbons of Orders, Decorations and Medals" (plate 14) depicting a plain blue ribbon, on the other hand, there's a 1995 to present day award with the same name which comes on a collar chain (see http://www.themedalhound.com/french/cambodia.html ).

Neither appear particularly apt to have been part of general Sainz awards and the idea of misplaced ribbons within his ribbon group, as suggested by 922F, starts to look far more plausible. The good general or his military tailor may well have made an error in putting the group together. So, until proof to the contrary, Palmes Acad?miques and Sant? Publique order would be the most likely suspects.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Claudio]

Thanks Hendrik and F922 for your contributions. I think you're both right; it must be the "ordre de la sant? publique".

Here is the final description of the ribbons:

? Ordre national de la L?gion d?Honneur, Commandeur

? Croix de Guerre 1939 ? 1945

? Croix de Guerre des Th??tres d'Op?rations Ext?rieurs (1921)

? M?daille des ?vades (1926)

? Croix du Combattant (1930)

? M?daille d?Outre-Mer / M?daille coloniale (1893-1962), Extr?me Orient

? M?daille comm?morative de la Guerre 1939-1945 (1946), France/Afrique/Lib?ration

? M?daille comm?morative de la Campagne d'Indochine (1953)

? Ordre de l??toile Noire, Commandeur (1889-1963)

? Ordre du Dragon d'Annam, Officier (1886-1950)

? Ordre des Palmes Acad?miques, Officier (1808/1955)

? Ordre de la Sant? Publique, Officier (1938-1963)

? Ordre du Million d?El?phant et du Parasol Blanc, Laos

? Ordre de l'?toile d'Anjouan, Commandeur (1874-1963)

? Ordre de Nichan Iftikhar, Tunisie (Ordre de la fiert?), Commandeur

? Ordre du m?rite civil Tha? (1950-1954), cr?? par le conseil de la f?d?ration Tha?, Commandeur

Hopefully now it is correct.

I am just wondering why he got the "M?daille des ?vades (1926)"...

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited June 17, 2009 by Claudio

[922F]

Gentlemen,

Hendrik, thank you for the information on the Cambodian National Merit award; I stand corrected. Maybe there is a blue ribbon for ribbon bar use to indicate such an award???

Claudio, thank you again for sharing this group---I believe your last post is definitive. As to ribbon group construction, it might appear the precedence could be mixed between date of award and rank order.

On 7 January 1944, a law extended M?daille des ?vades eligibility to 'escapers [or attempted escapers]' during the 2nd World War. About 39,000 military and civilian personnel received the medal for their efforts during WW II. It could also be retroactively awarded for Franco-Prussian War 'escapers'! Residents of Alsace-Lorraine during the "German occupation of 1871-1918" could qualify for the medal. These provisions according to the 20 August 1926 establishment law and a 1927 decree. [a number of published and internet references provide this information--maybe the easiest to find is www.france-phaleristique.com/somdecos.htm. see below]

Croix dM?daille des ?vades (1926)e Guerre des Th??tres d'Op?rations Ext?rieurs (1921)

? M?daille des ?vades (1926)

la M?daille des ?vades comm?morant les actes d'?vasion des prisonniers de guerre ainsi que des populations d'Alsace-Lorraine et des territoires occup?s ( ? partir du d?cret du 7 avril 1927 ).

Son attribution pour la guerre 1914 -1918, fut soumise ? l'avis d'une commission interminist?rielle si?geant au minist?re de la Guerre, qui d?cerna, ? titre militaire, pr?s de 16 000 m?dailles accompagn?es de citation permettant l'attribution de la Croix de Guerre 1914 -1918 ou des T.O.E.

Pour les Alsaciens-Lorrains et les habitants des r?gions occup?es, cette m?daille ?tait obtenue, apr?s avis d'une commission sp?ciale du minist?re de l'Int?rieur.

L'ordonnance du 7 janvier 1944 ?tendit son attribution, apr?s avis d'une commission, pour les actes et tentatives d'?vasion, de militaires ou de civils, pendant la guerre 1939-1945. Au 1^er janvier 1992, l'on d?nombrait ainsi 38 976 m?dailles attribu?es au titre de ce conflit.

profit des ?vad?s.

Cette requ?te fut satisfaite par la loi du 20 ao?t 1926 qui cr?a la M?daille des ?vades comm?morant les actes d'?vasion des prisonniers de guerre ainsi que des populations d'Alsace-Lorraine et des territoires occup?s ( ? partir du d?cret du 7 avril 1927 ).

Son attribution pour la guerre 1914 -1918, fut soumise ? l'avis d'une commission interminist?rielle si?geant au minist?re de la Guerre, qui d?cerna, ? titre militaire, pr?s de 16 000 m?dailles accompagn?es de citation permettant l'attribution de la Croix de Guerre 1914 -1918 ou des T.O.E.

Pour les Alsaciens-Lorrains et les habitants des r?gions occup?es, cette m?daille ?tait obtenue, apr?s avis d'une commission sp?ciale du minist?re de l'Int?rieur.

L'ordonnance du 7 janvier 1944 ?tendit son attribution, apr?s avis d'une commission, pour les actes et tentatives d'?vasion, de militaires ou de civils, pendant la guerre 1939-1945. Au 1^er janvier 1992, l'on d?nombrait ainsi 38 976 m?dailles attribu?es au titre de ce conflit.

En 1925, le d?put? Marcel PLAISANT d?posait aupr?s de la Chambre des d?put?s et au nom des associations d'?vad?s de la guerre 1914-1918, une proposition de loi visant ? cr?er une d?coration particuli?re qui entra?nerait l'attribution d'une croix de guerre au profit des ?vad?s.

Cette requ?te fut satisfaite par la loi du 20 ao?t 1926 qui cr?a la M?daille des ?vades comm?morant les actes d'?vasion des prisonniers de guerre ainsi que des populations d'Alsace-Lorraine et des territoires occup?s ( ? partir du d?cret du 7 avril 1927 ).

Son attribution pour la guerre 1914 -1918, fut soumise ? l'avis d'une commission interminist?rielle si?geant au minist?re de la Guerre, qui d?cerna, ? titre militaire, pr?s de 16 000 m?dailles accompagn?es de citation permettant l'attribution de la Croix de Guerre 1914 -1918 ou des T.O.E.

Pour les Alsaciens-Lorrains et les habitants des r?gions occup?es, cette m?daille ?tait obtenue, apr?s avis d'une commission sp?ciale du minist?re de l'Int?rieur.

L'ordonnance du 7 janvier 1944 ?tendit son attribution, apr?s avis d'une commission, pour les actes et tentatives d'?vasion, de militaires ou de civils, pendant la guerre 1939-1945. Au 1^er janvier 1992, l'on d?nombrait ainsi 38 976 m?dailles attribu?es au titre de ce conflit.