Soviet Valuation

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I would like to pose a question regarding a situation which comes along from time to time. Occasionally, we come across decorations which,

because of their number and type, are obvious and legitimate replacement pieces. Mainly because of the suspension to screwback, screwback

to suspension changes, it seems that this is most commonly found among the Lenin. Red Banner and Patriotic War Orders.

My question is, how does one go about placing a value on such pieces?

Let’s take a hypothetical example. A type 3 (suspension) Red Banner has a serial number of 21,000. This number should be on a type 2 (screwback).

Now, if a type 2 (screwback) with this number has a value of, let’s say, $1,500 and a properly numbered type 3 (suspension) is worth $500, what

would you say the value of the type 3 (suspension) with this number should be?

I don’t know of any formula or specific answer, but I think that some of you might have some very interesting theories and opinions. Have fun with

this one, I look forward to hearing from you on it.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Guest Rick Research]

Hmmmmm....

I'd venture that it SHOULD come down to verified research.

Here is Red Banner number 1869 from 25 November 1938 exchanged for a standard WW2 style--

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2009/post-160-125476581551.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2009/post-160-125476585749.jpg

Yup. The old "Victory Parade" modernization story.

As it happens, this came from Igor (who else?) in The Good Old Days, along with the Orders Book-- photo page unfortunately removed.

Turns out to have belonged to a Central Asian Comrade who was an air force Major General later. I got around the inability to get research on pre-Patriotic War awards by asking for research on his missing Nevsky.

Then.. this was merely a curiosity. Now? With the OBSESSION with sub-micro-variations (as if WHO/WHEN/WHY is nothing and the die stamp is all that matters )--

???????????????????????????

I still "value" things by who the real person was, whether it was earned or not, and how much personal data can be obtained.

Minutiae about machining doesn't interest me. :catjava:

[Wild Card]

You raise a good point Rick. I also put a great value on the reason for the award and the person who received it -

probably too much value at times.

In posing the question, I should have pointed out that “reason” and “person” should not be influencing factors.

I think that in the vast majority of cases, the “reason” for virtually any 1940 - 1943 Red Banner will outweigh that

of most 1945 awards. Don’t you agree?

[Guest Rick Research]

Absolutely!

Simply looking at The Thing Itself-- I suppose it is a "good" thing that official updated versions are NOT "worth" more or Bad Persons would be scrubbing out the vast number of ordinary later types and scratching in fraudulent early serial numbers.I'd venture to GUESS that there are fewer official updates than earlier versions which "logically" should make the modernized versions "worth" MORE...

but that is something for the Die Variant afficianados. :catjava:

[Ferdinand]

Interesting question. I guess there is no scientific formula; it just depends on what a particular buyer is willing to pay for the award on a particular moment, as with all valuation questions.

Something slightly different: the Red Banner below I won on an auction last year. I really liked it because of its near mint obverse and neatly done conversion to screwback. This originally wasn't a screwback award, but for some reason it has been converted. It is obviously against the regulations and maybe even done by a dealer, but does that make it worth less than a regular suspension Red Banner in the same S/N range, or even more? Who knows.

[Guest Rick Research]

ANOTHER perfect example of what I mean--

that is "ruinous" damage to an original piece (unresearched? May/June 1944) that COULD have been done the week before you got it. Would look OK on a uniform...

but man oh man, if it came with a photograph of the recipient WEARING it that way--

We've seen such freakish little monkey fingers alterations by recipients, and to me

it makes ALL the difference in the world whether HE did it ( but )or somebody wrecked it, spoiling an original piece to trick somebody into paying more for a screwback piece it shouldn't be.

[Ferdinand]

Yes, agreed.

The RB is researched (awarded to a Senior Lieutenant on 29 April 1944) but unfortunately the archive didn't have a picture of the guy.

[Ferdinand]

I came across a Red Banner on eBay, very similar to mine. Same mint, slightly higher serial number, and also nicely conversed to screwback:

- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180436245824

It sold for $380, a slightly higher price than what normal Red Banners in this serial number range are selling for.

[JimZ]

I doubt you can ever attribute matters as this down to a formula. Each is ready to pay what it is worth to him in his opinion and the higher bidder will win.

As Rick mentions, such conversions could come down to the wearer or the dealer and without evidence to the contrary, I usualaly assume that it is the latter, unless the serial number and method of alteration falls within know 'conversions'.

My opinion is that if you want to go for a screwback then find a good specimen you are willing to buy and spend good money on the real thing. If on the other hand, you want a suspension variation, then the same applies. If you are a variation collector (as I have been known to be myself!) then stick to known mint variations and not the multitude of (very intreresting and sometimes questionable) conversions available.

However, if the order and its serial number do come with research... even if seriously altered to make it more valuable (??!!) then the story may be totally different!

Jim