Michael Johnson Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) I bought this recently for a couple of reasons: 1. I've never owned one in 35 years of collecting 2. He was from Halifax N.S., where I've spent many happy days Imperial Service Medal George V second issue, named to Patrick McTiernan. A check of the Gazette showed that it was issued in 1933, to him as Wheel Specialist, Halifax Nova Scotia. Whereas most UK awards appear to be Post Office, Canadian awards are often Railways and Canals. The ISM was awarded for 25 years' service, so I reasoned Patrick would have been in Halifax on December 6 1917, when the "Imo" and the "Mont Blanc" collided, causing the greatest man-made explosion until the atomic bomb. A search of the Halifax Explosion Remembrance Book shows that five McTiernans died that day. http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/remembrance/Results.asp?Search=Mctiernan&fieldSelect=keyword All were related to Patrick. His mother Margaret (his father died in 1892, from TB) His sister-in-law Mary Jane (her husband survived) His brother Bartholemew Bartholemew's wife Caroline Their four-year-old son Wilfred Patrick identified his mother's body. Bartholemew's house was totally destroyed by fire, so no bodies were recovered. Their death certificates state "Remains completely consumed by fire" Edited October 20, 2009 by Michael Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Neat! The Halifax explosion and devastation is frightening to think about. They heard the bang in Portland, Maine-@ 600 miles+ away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Neat! The Halifax explosion and devastation is frightening to think about. They heard the bang in Portland, Maine-@ 600 miles+ away. Michael, Congratulations. Probably the most interesting story I have heard behind what is basically one of the most humble decorations of the British Empire as you say usually issued to lower ranks of the Civil Service as a retirement present, All the best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Hi Michael, These are among some of my favourite medals and this one tops any that I have. So much history and Canadian history at that. Thanks for posting it for us all to enjoy. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I've always wonderd how anyone there ever recovered their hearing again. BTW-- since our stores now are littered with Christmas junque 2 weeks before Halloween ( ) might be a seasonal note (what with it having snowed twice already) to note that Halifax's annual GIGANTIC Christmas tree to the city of Boston, Massachsuetts (in thanks for the aid rushed up there) in recent years has become the "Holiday Tree" and other such nonsense. You can stop now. Boston has gone creepily insane. Meanwhile, great story for somebody who survived the impossible. Any way to find out how long he lived, and whether he had a family of his own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darrell Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) No really up to speed on the ISM, but I have a question. You mention 25 years "service" .... service in what? Is it possible to have a 2nd Afghan War - Medal / Kanduhar Star with an ISM (GVI) issue? I would think so, but I'm curious what type "service" is required. Public service? Edited October 20, 2009 by Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted October 21, 2009 Author Share Posted October 21, 2009 No really up to speed on the ISM, but I have a question. You mention 25 years "service" .... service in what? Is it possible to have a 2nd Afghan War - Medal / Kanduhar Star with an ISM (GVI) issue? I would think so, but I'm curious what type "service" is required. Public service? Public service (civil servants). Probably lots of George VI issues where the recipient had First War service. Your example would be possible if someone worked into their seventies. More likely a father/son group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darrell Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Public service (civil servants). Probably lots of George VI issues where the recipient had First War service. Your example would be possible if someone worked into their seventies. More likely a father/son group. Michael could be. The naming on all 3 medals is the same 1st and last names. Could be father / sun. Just wondering how likely it would be if to the same man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 The ISM is granted on retirement from the Civil Service provided 25 years of efficient and loyal service has been rendered prior to retirement - it was not awarded after 25 years service but on actual retirement. Retirement age fro the Civil Service was normally 60 so it is relatively easy to calculate the man's age to see if he was e.g. old enough for WW1 service Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted October 21, 2009 Author Share Posted October 21, 2009 Michael could be. The naming on all 3 medals is the same 1st and last names. Could be father / sun. Just wondering how likely it would be if to the same man? Start with the 1891 census, although you may have to eliminate some names (hope the name isn't Smith). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Start with the 1891 census, although you may have to eliminate some names (hope the name isn't Smith). I have seen quite a few Boer War Great War ISM groups, usually to Prison Officers who were originally recruited from the services. So yes in theory it is possible to have an Afghan and ISM. A sergeant who retired at say 30 in 1882 and joined a branch of government service could have received the ISM (type 1) in around 1910 although have never seen one. All the best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darrell Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I have seen quite a few Boer War Great War ISM groups, usually to Prison Officers who were originally recruited from the services. So yes in theory it is possible to have an Afghan and ISM. A sergeant who retired at say 30 in 1882 and joined a branch of government service could have received the ISM (type 1) in around 1910 although have never seen one. All the best, Paul But a GVI issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 But a GVI issue? Darrell Very unlikely but not impossible some government workers until post war worked well past the past the present retirement age, rural postmen amongst others he could have been serving in Afghanistan aged 18 and still delivering the letters aged 78, basically especially pre war as long as you were healthy (or had money) you worked The medals with the greatest longevity are the MSMs. I have seen a Burma 1885-87 with a 1949 MSM. He was lucky to survive to receive it. Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darrell Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Darrell Very unlikely but not impossible some government workers until post war worked well past the past the present retirement age, rural postmen amongst others he could have been serving in Afghanistan aged 18 and still delivering the letters aged 78, basically especially pre war as long as you were healthy (or had money) you worked The medals with the greatest longevity are the MSMs. I have seen a Burma 1885-87 with a 1949 MSM. He was lucky to survive to receive it. Paul Thanks Paul. Michael has been doing some detective work for me as well. I appreciate all the help. Hope it didn;t sidetrack the original thread too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) I think we've proved it to be a father and son group. Although they had the same name, the father would have been 92 if it was his. Edited October 23, 2009 by Michael Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darrell Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I think we've proved it to be a father and son group. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) I was looking over one of my books on the Halifax Explosion, and came across some statistics that tie in with my medal. The Canadian Government Railways lost 55 of their personnel, including Bartholemew McTiernan. Three hundred rail cars were detroyed, and 20 locomotives. Edited October 29, 2009 by Michael Johnson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesM Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I've always wonderd how anyone there ever recovered their hearing again. BTW-- since our stores now are littered with Christmas junque 2 weeks before Halloween ( ) might be a seasonal note (what with it having snowed twice already) to note that Halifax's annual GIGANTIC Christmas tree to the city of Boston, Massachsuetts (in thanks for the aid rushed up there) in recent years has become the "Holiday Tree" and other such nonsense. You can stop now. Boston has gone creepily insane. Meanwhile, great story for somebody who survived the impossible. Any way to find out how long he lived, and whether he had a family of his own? That could have explained my grandfather’s hearing loss. Both my grandparents were in that location on the day of the explosion. My grandfather was on board ship, on duty, moored with other naval ships when the explosion happened. He was thrown some 20 feet in the air and landed on the railing of the ship he was on. It was a 50/50 chance of falling on deck or into the water between his and the ship next to his. Luck had him fall on the deck, as had he hit the water, the two ships smashed against each other where he would have been crushed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 That could have explained my grandfather’s hearing loss. Both my grandparents were in that location on the day of the explosion. My grandfather was on board ship, on duty, moored with other naval ships when the explosion happened. He was thrown some 20 feet in the air and landed on the railing of the ship he was on. It was a 50/50 chance of falling on deck or into the water between his and the ship next to his. Luck had him fall on the deck, as had he hit the water, the two ships smashed against each other where he would have been crushed. James, which ship was he on? If your grandmother was present I assume it was an R.C.N. one- H.M.C.S. Niobe? Here's a list of the ships present: http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/expships.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Johnson Posted March 24, 2013 Author Share Posted March 24, 2013 Thanks to a member on the BMF I was able to find his record of service: http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e324/e008078908.jpg Dismissed in 1892 for a collision while he was a shunter, he wasn't taken back until 1904. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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