France Criox de Guerre ?

[Nick Charman]

Your help please.

My Farther was awarded the Criox de Guerre in the WW1 -- when seconded to the French Army at Verdun.

My understanding is that any foriegn national awarded this honour by France -- has to go to Paris to collect the actual decoration and Pay a fee. Again I thought that the fee after the second world war was something like £50 (GBP) -- My father said it was seven and sixpence in or after the first world war ?

I regret he did not pay up or travel -- so I do not in fact hold that medal with his three others ( the MC DCM & MM )

I only have newspaper cuttings to show that this award was made to him ( and we all know how acurrate newspapers can be ? )

Gallentary medals in this country are listed and some gazzetted -- but all I think are verifiable.

I am therefore asking anyone for help in tracing and or verifing my Father's award from the French?

I have asked the French Embassy in London if they can help -- they suggested I ask the Direction de la memiore, du patrimoine et des archives, 14 rue Saint-Dominique 00450 ARMES via Nadine Bonnefoi -- this I did on the 1/12/2009 but to date with no answer.

Any help would be very gratefully received

Thank Nick C

[Gunner 1]

What is your father's name and rank? Regards, Gunner 1

[Herr General]

Would they have been mentioned on his medal index card?

[PKeating]

He wasn't 202297 Arthur Ernest Charman, was he? The London Gazette supplement of 19.9.1941 has CSM A E Charman MC DCM MM, acting RQMS, from The Middlesex Regiment serving with The Royal Army Pay Corps, commissioned 2nd Lt as of 25.8.1941.

I am afraid you might spend a lot of time trying to find his CdG in French archives but if you have supporting newspaper clippings from the time, they may help. I would be happy to give your contact a call here in France to see what can be done. PM me if you like. The Verdun connection is interesting. Did he ever tell you what he was doing on secondment to the French Army?

PK

Edited January 14, 2010 by PKeating

[Nick Charman]

He wasn't 202297 Arthur Ernest Charman, was he? The London Gazette supplement of 19.9.1941 has CSM A E Charman MC DCM MM, acting RQMS, from The Middlesex Regiment serving with The Royal Army Pay Corps, commissioned 2nd Lt as of 25.8.1941.

I am afraid you might spend a lot of time trying to find his CdG in French archives but if you have supporting newspaper clippings from the time, they may help. I would be happy to give your contact a call here in France to see what can be done. PM me if you like. The Verdun connection is interesting. Did he ever tell you what he was doing on secondment to the French Army?

PK

PKeating

Yes my Father's WW2 service no was P202297 -- he did joined the Middlesex Regiment approx 6/9/1939 -- I thought he was a CSM in 1940 still with the Middlesex Regiment -- ( he was commissioned in the feild in 1918 -- but the war ended before he could actually take up the commission ) he wrote to the war office in August 1939 and was told they would call him when they wanted him) so he enlisted as a private as above arround the third day of the war. I thought the commission came through on 1940 ? and it was in the Pioneer Corps, I don't remember seeing shoulder flashes for the Pay Corps -- also the RQMS bit is missing from my memory -- and something tells me he was told that he would have to go to pre-octu etc -- and I thought he declined ( if you are allowed to decline anything ) and was never ( I thought seen with just one pip ) I thought somehow they gave him 2 pips -- but he was posted to the pioneers ?? and finished the war as a Major -- I can remember my Mother sewing on the crowns. He only served in the UK in ww2 -- but funnily enough ran a preoctu school for the Pioneer's on Tadcaster Race Course -- and "looked after a detantion centre" for D-Day deserters in Hyton near Liverpool -- obviously after 6/6/1944.

I thank you for your interest -- " PM me " is not something I understand -- but if you can advise or help me I would indeed be most pleased !!

Below is the copy and paste details i sent to Farnce --- Quote .......

To whom it may concern,

Please may I ask for your help --- I am sorry I do not speak French.

I beleive that My Father was awarded the Crox de Guerre in the First World War,

he was in the British Army, his regiment was the 21st County of London - 1st

Surrey Rifle Brigade - which was part of the 47th Division-- which fought in

france from 1915 until the end of that war. His name was Arthur Ernest Charman

and his Army number was 2019, he was a private soldier in 1915 -- and was a

Company Sergeant Major in 1918, so at Verdun he might have been a Sergeant

My Father was attached to / or seconded to /the French Army and fought the

German Army in Verdun? I am not certain in which year but the battles were

fought at Verdun ? but this is when he was given his award.

Can you tell me if I can research online -- or is there an address I can write

to ??

UNquote ....

I understood he was seconded with his Platoon who were called "bombers" -

( they fought mainly with handgranades, not certain with strong right arm -- or

with some device -- on the rifle ( maybe the later I am just dreaming ?) the

action took place in the sewers at Verdun ( ie undergrond ) -- regret not certain

the year -- but if my history servers me right -- the German's should have been

on the brink of a big victory ???

As I said above would be very pleased indeed if you could help or advise

Thank you for your response -- extremely interesting

Kindest regards,

Nick A M Charman

[Nick Charman]

What is your father's name and rank? Regards, Gunner 1

Thank you Gunner !

This is a cut and paste job below -- which i hope willa nswer your question

Thank you for your reply

Nick Charman

He wasn't 202297 Arthur Ernest Charman, was he? The London Gazette supplement of 19.9.1941 has CSM A E Charman MC DCM MM, acting RQMS, from The Middlesex Regiment serving with The Royal Army Pay Corps, commissioned 2nd Lt as of 25.8.1941.

I am afraid you might spend a lot of time trying to find his CdG in French archives but if you have supporting newspaper clippings from the time, they may help. I would be happy to give your contact a call here in France to see what can be done. PM me if you like. The Verdun connection is interesting. Did he ever tell you what he was doing on secondment to the French Army?

PK

PKeating

Yes my Father's WW2 service no was P202297 -- he did joined the Middlesex Regiment approx 6/9/1939 -- I thought he was a CSM in 1940 still with the Middlesex Regiment -- ( he was commissioned in the feild in 1918 -- but the war ended before he could actually take up the commision ) he wrote to the war office in August 1939 and was told they would call him when they wanted him) so he enlisted as a private as above arround the third day of the war. I thought the commission came through on 1940 ? and it was in the Pioneer Corps, I don't remember seeing shoulder flashes for the Pay Corps -- also the RQMS bit is missing from my memory -- and something tells me he was told that he would have to go to pre-octu etc -- and I thought he declined ( if you are allowed to decline anything ) and was never ( I thought seen with just one pip ) I thought somehow they gave him 2 pips -- but he was posted to the pioneers ?? and finished the war as a Major -- I can remember my Mother sewing on the crowns. He only served in the UK in ww2 -- but funnily enough ran a preoctu school for the Pioneer's on Tadcaster Race Course -- and "looked after a detantion centre" for D-Day diserters in Hyton near Liverpool -- obviously after 6/6/1944.

I thank you for your interest -- " PM me " is not something I understand -- but if you can advise or help me I would indeed be most pleased !!

Below is the copy and paste details i sent to Farnce --- Quote .......

To whom it may concern,

Please may I ask for your help --- I am sorry I do not speak French.

I beleive that My Father was awarded the Crox de Guerre in the First World War,

he was in the British Army, his regiment was the 21st County of London - 1st

Surrey Rifle Brigade - which was part of the 47th Division-- which fought in

france from 1915 until the end of that war. His name was Arthur Ernest Charman

and his Army number was 2019, he was a private soldier in 1915 -- and was a

Company Sergeant Major in 1918, so at Verdun he might have been a Sergeant

My Father was attached to / or seconded to /the French Army and fought the

German Army in Verdun? I am not certain in which year but the battles were

fought at Verdun ? but this is when he was given his award.

Can you tell me if I can research online -- or is there an address I can write

to ??

UNquote ....

I understood he was seconded with his Platoon who were called "bombers" -

( they fought mainly with handgranades, not certain with strong right arm -- or

with some device -- on the rifle ( maybe the later I am just dreaming ?) the

action took place in the sewers at Verdun ( ie undergroud ) -- regret not certain

the year -- but if my history servers me right -- the German's should have been

on the brink of a big victory ???

As I said above would be very pleased indeed if you could help or advise

Thank you for your response -- extremely interesting

Kindest regards,

Nick A M Charman

[Nick Charman]

Would they have been mentioned on his medal index card?

No Mentioned on his medal cards ( as yet have only "done" Kew .

Below is a cut and paste answer to PKeating --

He wasn't 202297 Arthur Ernest Charman, was he? The London Gazette supplement of 19.9.1941 has CSM A E Charman MC DCM MM, acting RQMS, from The Middlesex Regiment serving with The Royal Army Pay Corps, commissioned 2nd Lt as of 25.8.1941.

I am afraid you might spend a lot of time trying to find his CdG in French archives but if you have supporting newspaper clippings from the time, they may help. I would be happy to give your contact a call here in France to see what can be done. PM me if you like. The Verdun connection is interesting. Did he ever tell you what he was doing on secondment to the French Army?

PK

PKeating

Yes my Father's WW2 service no was P202297 -- he did joined the Middlesex Regiment approx 6/9/1939 -- I thought he was a CSM in 1940 still with the Middlesex Regiment -- ( he was commissioned in the feild in 1918 -- but the war ended before he could actually take up the commision ) he wrote to the war office in August 1939 and was told they would call him when they wanted him) so he enlisted as a private as above arround the third day of the war. I thought the commission came through on 1940 ? and it was in the Pioneer Corps, I don't remember seeing shoulder flashes for the Pay Corps -- also the RQMS bit is missing from my memory -- and something tells me he was told that he would have to go to pre-octu etc -- and I thought he declined ( if you are allowed to decline anything ) and was never ( I thought seen with just one pip ) I thought somehow they gave him 2 pips -- but he was posted to the pioneers ?? and finished the war as a Major -- I can remember my Mother sewing on the crowns. He only served in the UK in ww2 -- but funnily enough ran a preoctu school for the Pioneer's on Tadcaster Race Course -- and "looked after a detantion centre" for D-Day diserters in Hyton near Liverpool -- obviously after 6/6/1944.

I thank you for your interest -- " PM me " is not something I understand -- but if you can advise or help me I would indeed be most pleased !!

Below is the copy and paste details i sent to Farnce --- Quote .......

To whom it may concern,

Please may I ask for your help --- I am sorry I do not speak French.

I beleive that My Father was awarded the Crox de Guerre in the First World War,

he was in the British Army, his regiment was the 21st County of London - 1st

Surrey Rifle Brigade - which was part of the 47th Division-- which fought in

france from 1915 until the end of that war. His name was Arthur Ernest Charman

and his Army number was 2019, he was a private soldier in 1915 -- and was a

Company Sergeant Major in 1918, so at Verdun he might have been a Sergeant

My Father was attached to / or seconded to /the French Army and fought the

German Army in Verdun? I am not certain in which year but the battles were

fought at Verdun ? but this is when he was given his award.

Can you tell me if I can research online -- or is there an address I can write

to ??

UNquote ....

I understood he was seconded with his Platoon who were called "bombers" -

( they fought mainly with handgranades, not certain with strong right arm -- or

with some device -- on the rifle ( maybe the later I am just dreaming ?) the

action took place in the sewers at Verdun ( ie undergroud ) -- regret not certain

the year -- but if my history servers me right -- the German's should have been

on the brink of a big victory ???

As I said above would be very pleased indeed if you could help or advise

Thank you for your response -- extremely interesting

Kindest regards,

Nick A M Charman

[leigh kitchen]

Any idea of his date & place of birth please?

"Ancestry" have misfiled his MIC under the name Albert E Charman.

(There's another Arthur Charman of 21st Londons, Royal Engineers, Cambrdgeshires, Royal Engineers, albeit with a different army number).

[leigh kitchen]

MIC for the DCM:

[PKeating]

Hallo Nick!

"PM me" means "send me a private message through the website's Private Message system". If you click on my name next to my post, you should end up on my profile page, where you will see a button enabling you to send me a message. This way, you can send me your e-mail address, if you wish. Here's an extract from a screenshot of the London Gazette page from 1941, mentioning your father. I see that I misread the entry. The RQMS reference concerns the man below your father. I also misread the sub-heading. Your father seems to have been listed under Pioneer Corps. Sorry about that! Copy and paste this link into your internet browser and it should take you to the LG page in question: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/35278/supplements/5408

You'll probably be able to find entries for his decorations, using the Advanced Search facility: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search

Regarding your letter to France, unfortunately, very few people in France speak foreign languages, especially in the civil service. So your letter was probably incomprehensible to them. I will translate it into French for you when I have a moment today. I will also see about finding a phone number as, in my experience, the French tend to be very kind and helpful regarding requests like this, especially when one gives them a ring, which I will happily do on your behalf.

PK

Edited January 15, 2010 by PKeating

[Nick Charman]

Hallo Nick!

"PM me" means "send me a private message through the website's Private Message system". If you click on my name next to my post, you should end up on my profile page, where you will see a button enabling you to send me a message. This way, you can send me your e-mail address, if you wish. Here's an extract from a screenshot of the London Gazette page from 1941, mentioning your father. I see that I misread the entry. The RQMS reference concerns the man below your father. I also misread the sub-heading. Your father seems to have been listed under Pioneer Corps. Sorry about that! Copy and paste this link into your internet browser and it should take you to the LG page in question: http://www.london-ga...upplements/5408

You'll probably be able to find entries for his decorations, using the Advanced Search facility: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search

Regarding your letter to France, unfortunately, very few people in France speak foreign languages, especially in the civil service. So your letter was probably incomprehensible to them. I will translate it into French for you when I have a moment today. I will also see about finding a phone number as, in my experience, the French tend to be very kind and helpful regarding requests like this, especially when one gives them a ring, which I will happily do on your behalf.

PK

[Nick Charman]

P Keating,

Yet again my thanks to you, may I answer you as follows:-

1) Thank youn for all the information regarding PM me -- will action much later in the day -- again thanks

2) The French translation --- may I ask you to read below before you do any thing - Please

I am not completely with it -- I said originally in my posting on this site that I had not received a reply to my December email -- regret not true -- when I checked further -- I had -- and so I sent the email below -- also shows it date and time, as always.

I will answer more fully later in the day -- but wanted to make certain you new -- my error quickly.

---------- Original Message ----------

From: "nicola@pdimplementations.co.uk" <nicola@pdimplementations.co.uk>

To: bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defnse.gouv.fr

Date: 14 January 2010 at 15:41

Subject: Can I ask -- how to find out if my Father was awarded the Croix de

Guerre in WW1

To:-

The Bureau Cenral D'archives,

Administratives Militaires,

Caserne Bernadotte,

64023 Pau

To whom it may concern.

Please may I ask for your help --- I am sorry I do not speak French, therefore

my email will be written in english --- I was given your address by Nadine

Bonnefoi at the Direction de la memoire, du patrimoine et des archives, 14 rue

Saint-Dominique, 00450, ARMEES.

I beleive that My Father was awarded the Crox de Guerre in the First World War,

he was in the British Army, his regiment was the 21st County of London - 1st

Surrey Rifle Brigade - which was part of the 47th Division-- which fought in

france from 1915 until the end of that war. His name was Arthur Ernest Charman

and his Army number was 2019, he was a private soldier in 1915 -- and was a

Company Sergeant Major in 1918, so at Verdun he might have been a Sergeant, my

understanding is that he was in command of a platoon ( about 20 soldiers from

his regiment) who were called "bombers" ( they fought by throwing hand granades)

and this was in the sewers (underground) at Verdun.

My Father was attached to / or seconded to /the French Army and fought the

German Army in Verdun? I am not certain in which year but the battles were

fought at Verdun ? but this is when he was given his award.

Can you tell me if I can research online -- or is there an address I can write

to ??

I would be pleased to receive any help you are able to give me

May I thank you in anticipation of your help and advice

Kindest regards,

Nick A M Charman

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

Do you know what he did at Verdun? Is it possible that there is an error here? With the MC, DCM, MM and Croix de Guerre he seems to have been a very busy man indeed... I would love to have met someone who saw that much action!

Is it possible that he recieved it on the Somme or Flanders? Or even the Chemain des Dames and that as his history has been passed on to Children, then grandchildren a bit of confusion has crept in? I am only 15 years out of the army, saw a fraction of what he did and already I am not 100% sure of all the details... ask me when I am 60 and I will really have trouble remembering what happened where etc.

I ask because I read a lot about Verdun and have until now never seen an English connection. If he was attached to the French there... then in what capacity?

Best

Chris

[Bison]

If I may...

The address "bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defnse.gouv.fr" is not valid, the right one is: "bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defense.gouv.fr".

I am pretty sure that, with the help of Paul, you will succeed!

[Gunner 1]

I have gone through the online London Gazette using both his four-digit and six-digit number and have found no entry for him for the award of the French Croix de Guerre. Gunner 1

[Nick Charman]

If I may...

The address "bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defnse.gouv.fr" is not valid, the right one is: "bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defense.gouv.fr".

I am pretty sure that, with the help of Paul, you will succeed!

THANK YOU YES YOU ARE RIGHT -- IT BOUNCED BACK WITHOUT THE "E" -- I DID CORRECT AND SEND AGAIN -- AND AGAIN pAUL kEATING HAS BEEN EXTREMELY HELPFUL

Kindest regards

Nick Charman

[Nick Charman]

I have gone through the online London Gazette using both his four-digit and six-digit number and have found no entry for him for the award of the French Croix de Guerre. Gunner 1

Thank you Gunner 1 -- can i ask a stupid question -- does the LG post entries for French decorations -- I was told a "KEW" -- they did not -- so my stupid question is " does the LD post entries for any CdG awards to recipiants outside France -- and have you seen any at all ??

thank you for your interest

Kindest regards,

Nick Charman

[Gunner 1]

Nick: The London Gazette lists all foreign orders, decorations and medals 'officially' awarded to British subjects. If the award is not mentioned in the London Gazette it has not been officially awarded and has not been authorized for wear by the recipient. Thousands of awards of the French Croix de Guerre to British servicemen were listed in the London Gazette during, and after, the Great War. That said, many British officers and other ranks thought they were awarded the French Croix de Guerre and many actually wore the ribbon or medal of that decoration on their uniform but their awards are not listed in the London Gazette. The reasons for this are numerous, and include: (1) the soldier was told he had been awarded the decoration by a French officer but that award never went through official channels; (2) the Croix de Guerre was also a unit award and many soldiers thought, wrongly, that due to the unit award they were authorized to wear the decoration; and (3) many soldiers appear to have self-awarded the decorations to themselves.

Regards, Gunner1

Edited January 15, 2010 by Gunner 1

[PKeating]

Double Post

Edited January 16, 2010 by PKeating

[PKeating]

It is important to note that even if a foreign award does not appear in the London Gazette, it does not mean that the award was not made to a soldier. The posting in the LG of a foreign award to to an officer just means that he has been officially accorded the right by HM King or Queen to wear said award on his medal bar when parading in N° 1s and N° 2s.

The French Army may well have sent or tried to sent Nick's father a Citation document, recording the award of the CdG and its grade. A relative of mine, who was commissioned in the 1914-1918 War, received a regimental citation entitling him to the CdG with Bronze Star at his address in Dublin in 1920, after leaving the British Army, and this award never appeared in the London Gazette. But he put the CdG on his medal bar with his Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. A Croix de Guerre was eventually presented to him at the French Embassy in Dublin in 1948. He wasn't asked to pay for it, which is more than can be said for the occasion of the nomination of WW1 survivors to the Légion d'Honneur during President Chirac's reign in the 1990s. All of the old boys received bills for their medals, which were cancelled when the French media made a stink about it.

Foreigners did not have to be serving with French forces to earn a French award. The Allies often made awards to the fighting men of other armies as part of their general policy of cooperation and comradeship, as the awards by the Russians to men of other armies fighting the Huns who never even saw Russian soil remind us. I think Chris Boonzaier, who knows a lot about the Battle of Verdun - and who showed me around some of the battlefield a couple of years back - makes a good point. I don't think Albert Charman fought with the French Army at Verdun. I would be interested in seeing the newspaper clippings to which Nick referred earlier, if they mention the Croix de Guerre to his father. Perhaps Nick can ask someone to scan them and turn them into JPEG files of 100K of less so that he can post them here.

Here's a translation and edit of your e-mail, Nick. You can send this to any French archival organisation.

From:

To:

Date:

Subject: La Croix de Guerre décernée à mon père anglais pendant la guerre de 1914-1918

To:

Cher Madame/Monsieur,

Mme Nadine Bonnefoi de la Direction de la memoire, du patrimoine et des archives m’a donné vos coordonnées.

Mon père, qui a été décoré de la Military Cross, Distinguished Service Medal et la Military Medal pendant la Première Guerre Mondiale en France a apparément aussi reçu la Croix de Guerre française. Il s’appellait Arthur Ernest Charman du 21st County of London Regiment, ce qui faisait partie de la 1st Surrey Rifle Brigade, 47th Division. En 1915, il était simple soldat mais en 1918, il était Company Sergeant Major, une grade égal, je pense, à celle-là d’un Adjutant-Chef chez l”Arnée française. Est-ce qu’il y a un moyen de me renseigner ou, plutôt, vérifier sa Croix de Guerre française?

Je vous prie, chère Madame, cher Monsieur, d’agréer l’expression de mes sentiments distingués.

Cordialement

Nick A M Charman

Prosper Keating

Edited January 16, 2010 by PKeating

[PKeating]

Triple post. What's with the forum software?

Edited January 16, 2010 by PKeating

[Nick Charman]

Nick: The London Gazette lists all foreign orders, decorations and medals 'officially' awarded to British subjects. If the award is not mentioned in the London Gazette it has not been officially awarded and has not been authorized for wear by the recipient. Thousands of awards of the French Croix de Guerre to British servicemen were listed in the London Gazette during, and after, the Great War. That said, many British officers and other ranks thought they were awarded the French Croix de Guerre and many actually wore the ribbon or medal of that decoration on their uniform but their awards are not listed in the London Gazette. The reasons for this are numerous, and include: (1) the soldier was told he had been awarded the decoration by a French officer but that award never went through official channels; (2) the Croix de Guerre was also a unit award and many soldiers thought, wrongly, that due to the unit award they were authorized to wear the decoration; and (3) many soldiers appear to have self-awarded the decorations to themselves.

Regards, Gunner1

Thank you Gunner 1,

May I apolgise for my lack of knowledge --- I must have got it totally wrong at "Kew" --- and I was sitting opposite him !!!

Again thank you for the time and trouble you have taken to answer my question --- if you will allow me -- I will go through your many points above and put further queries and or questions to you?

1) LG lists medals "officially" awarded -- Q -- does that mean you have "turn up some where" and have it given to you --or "pinned on" --- and if this has not taken place " its not official ??

2) I understand what you say -- and my Father never ever wore it - or really ever referred to it -- it is a newspaper cutting from the Croydon Advertiser ( dated some where arround November or December 1918 -- and given to me by one of my fathers sisters -- that really sparked off this quest, and yes I do not always beleive what I see in newspapers.

3) I understand ---- the various points you make -- and I think also most villages and towns on the Western Front that were blown to pieces were also given the CdG -- Like Malta and the GC

Again my thanks -- I am learning,

Kind regards

Nick Charman

[Nick Charman]

Hi,

Do you know what he did at Verdun? Is it possible that there is an error here? With the MC, DCM, MM and Croix de Guerre he seems to have been a very busy man indeed... I would love to have met someone who saw that much action!

Is it possible that he recieved it on the Somme or Flanders? Or even the Chemain des Dames and that as his history has been passed on to Children, then grandchildren a bit of confusion has crept in? I am only 15 years out of the army, saw a fraction of what he did and already I am not 100% sure of all the details... ask me when I am 60 and I will really have trouble remembering what happened where etc.

I ask because I read a lot about Verdun and have until now never seen an English connection. If he was attached to the French there... then in what capacity?

Best

Chris

Hi Chris

I am not accomplished in many things, and one is the use of this site --- I did make a reply to you yesterday, and pressed the wrong button -- and

can't find it, or any trace of it. However my answer went something like this :-

1) Memory and detailed remembering -- yes you are very right -- you did also miss out on the word embelish -- which can also creep in.

2) I am in my 79th year -- and regret that in fact my Father and I never talk to each other about WW1 or WW2 directly -- or about his history. My recollections come from being allowed to be with him when his Pals came to visit -- and talk to each other about "times passed". They were two sjts in the Battalion -- but to do with supply -- I think you will find that most of the front line men that jioned up with him in August 1914 did not make it. ( both were Town Clerks one in Hackney and one in Camberwell ) --- they talked of allsorts of things but very little about actual warfare.

3) I can remember talk of listening posts -- night patrols -- and a Brigidier that had an artificual leg that skweeked at night -- and three "actions" that stick in my mind 1) a landing from Royal Navy warships on the Belgium coast near Zebrugge -- they were rowed ashore in either cutters or actual lifeboats 2) Verdun -- my farther had a section / and or Platoon that were called "bombers" my understanding was their primary offensive weapon was the hand grenade( and they either had a strong right arm / or unless I am making this up -- a device to launch same ?? ) now I don't know of course what or if at all there are or were sewers in or under Verdun ( and what harm to the srtucture HG's would have cuased if used in that sort of space -- but it was for helping at Verdun that my memory says My Father was awarded his CdG ---- I hope this is not pure fantasy on my part --- but thats how I remember it ----- the third action I would only speak, of not put in writing.

4) You said you would like to have meet him -- yes. After ww1 he joined the Royal Irish Constabulary ( NOT A BLACK & TAN ) and was wounded twice before being pensioned off when the Republic was founded ( 3&sixpence a week for life - but increased with the cost of living ? ) -- He then joined the Honk Kong Police -- and formed the first anti piracy guard ( "white Russans & Indians (no not red ) ) -- if you enter the Hong Kong Police

Museum in the entrance hall you will see him named and pictured with the first guard !) the only real story from this time was they escorted The Duke of York and Mrs Simpson ( on Douglas Fairbanks yacht ) through the South China Seas.

I am sure this does not help -- but as you say -- if you take statements from three people who witnessed a crime you get five different versions of the same event.

Again my thanks for yout thoughts

I will keep taking the medicine

Nick Charman

[Gunner 1]

Nick wrote:

I will go through your many points above and put further queries and or questions to you?

1) LG lists medals "officially" awarded -- Q -- does that mean you have "turn up some where" and have it given to you --or "pinned on" --- and if this has not taken place " its not official ??

In the UK anyone who received a foreign order, decoration or medal had to have permission from the King to wear that award. During the Great War announcement of the award in the London Gazette was both a notification that the award had been made and permission from the King to wear the award.

2) I understand what you say -- and my Father never ever wore it - or really ever referred to it -- it is a newspaper cutting from the Croydon Advertiser ( dated some where arround November or December 1918 -- and given to me by one of my fathers sisters -- that really sparked off this quest, and yes I do not always beleive what I see in newspapers.

Newspapers and magazines often make mistakes in discussing the awards made by soldiers. The London Gazetteis the only official announcement of orders, decorations and awards to British subjects.

3)I think also most villages and towns on the Western Front that were blown to pieces were also given the CdG -- Like Malta and the GC

I think that you are correct.

Regards, Gunner 1

Edited January 16, 2010 by Gunner 1