Saxon and Reuss combo Ribbon Bar

[M Hunter]

Gentlemen,

This little bar landed with me the other day. Passes the black-light test and devices all look good in my opinion.

What say you chaps?

Just looking through my copy of Medal Ribbons and Orders by D.G. Neville and i find it interesting to note that the Waldeck ribbon is the "Order of Civil Merit"...but with swords? How so?

EDIT: Perhaps i have identified it wong and it is the Waldeck Cross of Honour (1899)?

Kind regards

Matt

Edited February 14, 2010 by M Hunter

[M Hunter]

Reverse

[Schießplatzmeister]

Gentlemen,

This little bar landed with me the other day. Passes the black-light test and devices all look good in my opinion.

What say you chaps?

Just looking through my copy of Medal Ribbons and Orders by D.G. Neville and i find it interesting to note that the Waldeck ribbon is the "Order of Civil Merit"...but with swords? How so?

EDIT: Perhaps i have identified it wong and it is the Waldeck Cross of Honour (1899)?

Kind regards

Matt

Hello Matt:

This is a nice "soft" ribbon bar for an Officer. The yellow, red, and black ribbon could be for the Waldeck Honor Cross (not for a "civilian award" though as there are swords present), but it is more likely for Reuss Honor Cross. Are the swords silver-plated or gilded?

Best regards,

"SPM"

[M Hunter]

Hello Matt:

This is a nice "soft" ribbon bar for an Officer. The yellow, red, and black ribbon could be for the Waldeck Honor Cross (not for a "civilian award" though as there are swords present), but it is more likely for Reuss Honor Cross. Are the swords silver-plated or gilded?

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi SPM,

The swords are guilded. I had initially thought Reuss myself...but then after looking in my book saw no such ribbon under the Reuss section...so thought Waldeck. How were the two differentiated? Perhaps by the colour of the swords?

Thanks

Matt

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello again Matt:

After 1915, Reuss used a ribbon identical to that of the Waldeck Merit Cross for all of their Honor Cross combat (with swords) awards. Since your ribbon has a gilded swords device, this would be a 2nd Class award with swords or a gold merit medal with swords. Since this fellow was most-likely an Officer per his Saxon awards, a 2nd Class with swords is probable. It is also possible however that he received the gold merit medal with swords and was then granted a temporary field promotion (i.e.: Leutnant d. Reserve) during the war. Unfortunately, there are no known award rolls for Reuss awards for WWI.

Congratulations and best regards,

"SPM"

Edited February 14, 2010 by Schießplatzmeister

[Deruelle]

Hi Matt,

Nice ribbon bar you have. Your man is from the Jäger Bataillon Nr. 13 (Heinrich XXVII from Reuss was Chef of that unit).

Regards

Christophe

[M Hunter]

Hello again Matt:

After 1915, Reuss used a ribbon identical to that of the Waldeck Merit Cross for all of their Honor Cross combat (with swords) awards. Since your ribbon has a gilded swords device, this would be a 2nd Class award with swords or a gold merit medal with swords. Since this fellow was most-likely an Officer per his Saxon awards, a 2nd Class with swords is probable. It is also possible however that he received the gold merit medal with swords and was then granted a temporary field promotion (i.e.: Leutnant d. Reserve) during the war. Unfortunately, there are no known award rolls for Reuss awards for WWI.

Congratulations and best regards,

"SPM"

Thank you SPM. Very informative!

I am still interested to know how this ribbon is most likely Reuss and not Waldeck. Was the Waldeck award very rare?

Matt

Edited February 14, 2010 by M Hunter

[M Hunter]

Hi Matt,

Nice ribbon bar you have. Your man is from the Jäger Bataillon Nr. 13 (Heinrich XXVII from Reuss was Chef of that unit).

Regards

Christophe

Christophe,

Thank you for this information. Can you please explain how you tracked this chap down to that Battalion?

Is an ID possible?

Thanks

Matt

Edited February 14, 2010 by M Hunter

[Deruelle]

Hi Matt,

In the entire Saxon Army, only one unit has got connexion with Reuss Principality of Reuss : the JB Nr. 13. For that we have to see if units has a Chef and who is he. For the Reuss, the unit is JB Nr. 13.

For example, if one Saxon officer received the Saxe Weimar knight cross of White Falcon, the probability he is from the Karabiner Regiment is high, like the Great Duke of Saxe Weimar was the Chef of that unit.

For your info, here is a photo of Freiherr von Uslar Gleichen, from JB Nr. 13. Note that he wore the Reuss 1st class cross with X.

Regards

Christophe

[M Hunter]

Hi Matt,

In the entire Saxon Army, only one unit has got connexion with Reuss Principality of Reuss : the JB Nr. 13. For that we have to see if units has a Chef and who is he. For the Reuss, the unit is JB Nr. 13.

For example, if one Saxon officer received the Saxe Weimar knight cross of White Falcon, the probability he is from the Karabiner Regiment is high, like the Great Duke of Saxe Weimar was the Chef of that unit.

For your info, here is a photo of Freiherr von Uslar Gleichen, from JB Nr. 13. Note that he wore the Reuss 1st class cross with X.

Regards

Christophe

Ah i see... Amazing, so it would be a case of finding out where the Officers of JB Nr. 13 went to after the First World War? Maybe some decided to put on some sort of TR uniform?

My chap played some role in the Second War as he received the KVK2X...but again who knows what sort of role. From different threads i have read and a lot of information written by Rick R i am going to hazard a guess that this chap was either a member of the Party in some shape or form, or some sort of Civilian capacity, but was brave (hence the Swords on the KVK). The lack of a Long service award has brought me to this conclusion. I may be wrong and totally away off on my own here, so please let me hear your thoughts.

It has turned out to be a very interesting little bar indeed!

My best

Matt

[Deruelle]

Matt,

I'm not sure that your man belonged to the Party.

I think, your man finished the war as a Leutnant or Oberleutnant d. R. he was not in the Reichswehr (there is no LS medals) and he's calling back to Army after 1935, probably as Hauptmann, or Major (see he received the 1938 ribbon. he was not in the first line during WW2, no Winter medal, no claps on EK2.

Christophe

[Schießplatzmeister]

Thank you SPM. Very informative!

I am still interested to know how this ribbon is most likely Reuss and not Waldeck. Was the Waldeck award very rare?

Matt

Hello again Matt:

Yes, you are correct, Waldeck awards are less often seen. Also, Waldeck awards are more often seen in groups with Prussian awards and very seldom with Saxon awards. So, what is most probable is what would make the most sense here.

As you have seen, Deruelle who is without a doubt a top expert in this area (although he may deny it) has nailed it down to the exact unit!

Best regards,

"SPM"

[M Hunter]

My thanks to SPM and a special thank you to Deruelle!

Kind regards

Matt

Edited February 16, 2010 by M Hunter

[eitze]

I am still interested to know how this ribbon is most likely Reuss and not Waldeck. Was the Waldeck award very rare?

Matt

Hi Matt,

the simple reason is, that the Waldeck WAR TIME ribbon is white in the middle and only the CIVIL version is yellow.

Here you can see an example from my collection.

It belongs to Major Werner von Buttlar. He got the civil 4. class (yellow ribbon) before the war and the same with swords (white ribbon) in WW-1.

So whenever you see such a yellow middle ribbon WITH SWORDS it can only be from Reuss!

greetings

eitze

[M Hunter]

Hi Matt,

the simple reason is, that the Waldeck WAR TIME ribbon is white in the middle and only the CIVIL version is yellow.

Here you can see an example from my collection.

It belongs to Major Werner von Buttlar. He got the civil 4. class (yellow ribbon) before the war and the same with swords (white ribbon) in WW-1.

So whenever you see such a yellow middle ribbon WITH SWORDS it can only be from Reuss!

greetings

eitze

Thank you Eitze....and thanks for posting this ribbon bar, very nice indeed!

Matt