officer ID possible?

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hi all,

would it be possible to ID this officer? Please notice the Anhalt neck order, Eagle 4, Crown 3, 25y, China, Soutwest, Saxony Albrecht,.....

any help is very welcome!!!

thank you

Heiko

[Mike Dwyer]

Heiko,

What a beautiful photo! Too bad it has the scratches on the surface!

[HeikoGrusdat]

yes the scratches are too bad, here is another one which might be possible to ID.... please help, I promise it`s my last ID wish for this year....

[Bob Hunter]

Handsome photos, Heiko! Good luck with the identification.

[HeikoGrusdat]

Thanks Bob, don`t forget to send me the prices for the bars....

[Bob Hunter]

...believe it or not I am working on that right now...

[webr55]

The first one is really tricky, can you post a closeup of the bar?

[Guest Rick Research]

No, the SECOND one is really tricky-- he is a technical (dark collar, no crowns above rank stripes) officer of the navy, of a branch qualified in 1911 (date stamped into photo) for the XXV Years long service cross:

I can't make out WHICH branch insignia is between his two rank pips, but he HAS to be

1) a Medical Officer

2) an Engineer

3) a Feuerwerks, Zeug, or Torpeder officer

I've lumped category 3 in as they all together seem extremely unlikely.

I have 1908 and 1914 naval rank lists, and there is nobody with these awards in 1908 or 1914. In fact, I don't see anybody in 1914 who COULD have had THESE awards, and something else. So here is a medical officer or engineer who retired or died between 1911 and 1914, who got that Japanese Order AFTER 1908.

This will require a 1910, 1911, and 1912 Navy Rank List to identify him by "bracketing" before and after awards versus disappearing retirees/deaths.

The first one is circa 1907:

an officer named HAHN, whose first name I do not have

Oberstleutnant 10.4.06 H3h, on staff of Hamburg Infantry Regiment 76--

Anhalt Albert the Bear-Commander (check)

Red Eagle 4 (check)

Crown Order 3 (check)

XXV (check)

steel SWA (unknowable-- not listed in the 1908/09 Orders Almanac, hence lack of details on him)

steel China (unknowable but see *)

1897 (of course)

SA3a (check)

WK3 (check)

BZ3a (check)

HP3bX (check)

so a positive ID for time and place from his awards

Major 27.1.00 N2n, * 1902 in 2. Versorgungs Abteilung (C2) of the Prussian War Ministry. In 1905 CO III./Baden Inf Regt 114

I would not be surprised if Hahn DIED circa 1907-12. He was gone by then (I only have seniority lists which do not show decorations, between 1907 and 1912 so I cannot be sure if he was one of those OBERST Hahns), not in the Orders Almanach, and no WW1 service per the ERL and supplement.

[webr55]

Here's the second one:

Marine-Oberstabsingenieur (here still Stabsingenieur) Manger

The RL 1913 shows him with RAO4, KO3, XXV and the Japanese Order of the Sacred Treasure (Officer's Cross), seniority 27.1.1911, at the Werft Kiel.

[Guest Rick Research]

YES!!!!!

So that photo was taken between January 1-26, 1911!

"G. Aug." Manger entered the navy 2 February 1880

Marine-Ingenieur and Ship's Engineer of the light cruiser "Bussard" in China during the Boxer Rebellion (so medal for combatants)

Marine-Stabsingenieur 14.7.04

1908-09 he was Squadron Engineer of the Kreuzer-Geschwader, aboard the flagship S.M.S. "F?rst Bismarck." At that point he had Red Eagle 4, Crown 4, XXV, and 1897. His Orders Almanac entry did not show the China, but I have him confirmed from a 1901 army and navy in China Stellenliste.

So he added the Japanese Order after 1908--

and DIED 1913/14. He had no wartime service.

It is good to be a network of mutually complimentary "instant online libraries," isn't it?

Happy New Year!!!

[HeikoGrusdat]

Guys, again you all are unbelievable!!!! Thank you very much, and my promise for next year: there are still some nice photographs to come!!!

Heiko

[Glenn J]

Generalleutnant Johannes August Ludwig Oskar von Hahn: 27 Mar 1862 at Erfurt - 6 Feb 1945. Enobled 1907/1908. He is listed as Major Joh. Hahn in the 1904/05 edition of the Orders Almanach.

Gro?-Lichterfelde Cadet - Commissioned in 2. Gro?herzoglich Hessischen Infanterie-Regiment (Gro?herzog) Nr. 16 on 17 April 1880. 28 Aug 1894: Company Commander in Leib-Grenadier-Regiment K?nig Friedrich Wilhelm III. (1. Brandenburgisches) Nr. 8. 20 May 1897 assigned to the War Ministry.

Left I.R. 76 to assume command of Infanterie-Regiment von Courbiere (2. Posensches) Nr. 19 on 24 Mar 1909 with promotion to Oberst (20.4.09 X). Moved on to the command of Infanterie-Regiment Graf Schwerin (3. Pommersches) Nr. 14 on 21 Feb 1911 until appointment as commander of 87. Infanterie-Brigade on 19 Nov 1912. General Officer commanding 35. Division from 25 Nov 1914 - 21 Jan 1918.

Secondlieutenant: 17.4.80 Y

Premierlieutenant: 16.4.89 O2o

Hauptmann: 18.11.93 V8v

Major: 27.1.00 N2n

Oberstleutnant: 10.4.06 H3h

Oberst: 20.4.09 X

Generalmajor: 19.11.12

Generalleutnant: 6.6.16 B

In 1926 living in Berlin at Viktoria-Luise Platz 6.

Regards

Glenn

[HeikoGrusdat]

good morning all of you and thank you very much Glenn for this information!!!! great work!!!

Heiko

[Guest Rick Research]

Aha! THAT'S why I couldn't find him! An odd candidate for ennoblement!

[Mike Dwyer]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but since you all are IDing officers. On another forum a newer member asked me if I could help him ID this officer. I was shocked he'd believe I'd actually know enough to possibly be able to ID this guy. I can't read that German script worth a darn so I have no idea what his name is. I thought I saw "Graf" in there, but now I'm not sure. The photo comes from a scrapbook of the Berlin-Lichterfeld/Preussisches Offz. Akademie

Any of you guys possibly be able to ID him?

Edited January 2, 2006 by Mike Dwyer

[Guest Rick Research]

You betcha.

"Graf Schlieffen."

Now that that narrows it down to one of dozens of THAT tribe will check the uniform (Staff of Kadettenkorps collar embroidery, rank = Major) and awards for the right one, and when!

[Guest Rick Research]

OK, photo taken 1913-14 at Kadettenhaus in Wahlstatt:

Carl Viktor Graf von Schlieffen

born Wiesbaden 26 February 1867

SekLt (probably in Inf Rgt 94)

PremLt

Hauptmann 12.9.02 Y6y (ernannt 27.1.02 as Fl?geladjutant of Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach)

Major 16.6.13 U

Oberstlt

char Oberst aD (haven't been able to locate him in the wartime seniority Lists 1917+)

alive 1926

Medal bar=

Prussian Red Eagle Order 4, Prussian Crown Order 4, Prussian XXV Years Service Cross, Kaiser Wilhelm I 1897 Centenary Medal, Bavarian Military Merit Order 4 (pre-1905, no flames), Saxon Albert Order-Knight 1st, W?rttemberg Friedrich Order-Knight 1st, Baden Z?hringen Lion Order-Knight 1st, Mecklenburg-Schwerin Griffin Order-Knight, Hessian Order of Philip the Genrous-Knight 1st, Saxe-Weimar Order of the White Falcon-Knight 2nd, Saxe-Ernestine House Order-Knight 1st, Anhalt Order of Albert the Bear-Knight 2nd (aka "Polar Bear"), Schaumburg-Lippe House Order 3rd Class, Reuss Honor Cross *Younger line) 2nd Class, Schwarzburg Honor Cross 3rd Class, Dutch Order of Orange-Nassau 4th Class and (sic should be in front of the foreign Order) Saxe-Weimar 1892 Wedding Jubilee Medal in gold.

Despite ALL of that, all from bossing around boys, vanishes into utter obscurity during the war, and shows up on no published award rolls. many of these barracks bosses were not good at actual REAL war!

Got questions? Got answers!

[Mike Dwyer]

Carl Viktor Graf von Schlieffen

Yes, you are a GOD!

Just because I posted a couple of royal postcards on WAF and mentioned I collected royalty, nobility, and generals this new guy thought I could actually help him! After spending nearly 2 hours trying to read the writing and trying to find him on the only ranklist I own (1914) I decided to ask the experts.

Thanks, Rick. I'll be sure to tell him I had nothing to do with this, other than I guessed the first word was "Graf".

[Glenn J]

Mike,

to add to Rick's post:

Graf von Schlieffen was indeed commissioned in Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 94. He had entered the regiment as an Avantageur (Fahnenjunker) with early promotions as follows:

Portepee-F?hnrich: 16.5.88

Secondelieutenant: 16.2.89

Premierlieutenant: 1.9.96 X6x

Hauptmann (ohne Patent): 27.1.02

From 1905 onwards he was at various cadet schools, initially Bensberg. From 1 Feb 1906 to 21 July 1906 he went to Karlsruhe whilst still on the strength of Bensberg to replace a sick company commander when he was transferred officialy to Karlsruhe. Finally to Wahlstatt from 1907/1908. He retired from active service becoming a Bezirks-Offizier in the rank of Major z.D. at Neustrelitz on 16 December 1916. He appears to have definitively retired sometime in 1917.

Regards

Glenn

[Mike Dwyer]

Mike,

to add to Rick's post:

Graf von Schlieffen was indeed commissioned in Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 94. He had entered the regiment as an Avantageur (Fahnenjunker) with early promotions as follows:

Portepee-F?hnrich: 16.5.88

Secondelieutenant: 16.2.89

Premierlieutenant: 1.9.96 X6x

Hauptmann (ohne Patent): 27.1.02

From 1905 onwards he was at various cadet schools, initially Bensberg. From 1 Feb 1906 to 21 July 1906 he went to Karlsruhe whilst still on the strength of Bensberg to replace a sick company commander when he was transferred officialy to Karlsruhe. Finally to Wahlstatt from 1907/1908. He retired from active service becoming a Bezirks-Offizier in the rank of Major z.D. at Neustrelitz on 16 December 1916. He appears to have definitively retired sometime in 1917.

Regards

Glenn

Thank you very much, Glenn.

[Glenn J]

Rick,

Aha! THAT'S why I couldn't find him! An odd candidate for ennoblement!

Indeed. A check in the relevant "Gotha" this morning at a local library shows he was raised to the Prussian nobility whilst still an Oberstleutnant in Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 76 on the 23rd of October 1907.

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

That's very, very, very curious-- he was waaaaaaay too old to have gotten a hereditary bump from his FATHER, and I've never heard of a regimental officer at his level being "vonned" like this before. Even Generals who were commoners could not expect that.

What on earth did he do as an Oberstleutnant in peacetime to earn that????

[Glenn J]

That's very, very, very curious-- he was waaaaaaay too old to have gotten a hereditary bump from his FATHER, and I've never heard of a regimental officer at his level being "vonned" like this before. Even Generals who were commoners could not expect that.

What on earth did he do as an Oberstleutnant in peacetime to earn that????

Rick,

yes, thats the strange part because it was he who was thus "vonned" and not another family member that passed it on.

Friends in high places

Regards

Glenn

[webr55]

And you won't believe this: Apparently - I got this from a somewhat dubious source, but it might be true nevertheless - he was Jewish. Also, he was a member of the DNVP after WW1.

[Glenn J]

And you won't believe this: Apparently - I got this from a somewhat dubious source, but it might be true nevertheless - he was Jewish. Also, he was a member of the DNVP after WW1.

He was "Evangelisch" according to the Offizier-Stammliste of Leib-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 8. His father was one Oberverwaltungsgerichtsrath Oskar Hahn and his mother Helene n?e Malotki von Trzebiatowski.

Regards

Glenn