A Medal Bar to discuss........ Round 2

[medalnet]

...a lunch break makes it possible. As promised the other similar medal bar from: Karl Bernhard von Schenk

[medalnet]

...well, since we are at it, a scan from a photo showing a rather narrow Oese:

[Stogieman]

Andreas, do you believe the cross on the bar I initially posted to be an authentic, 1866 award?

If you were offered the bar at 6000- Euro, and the photos are the same, and the set is the same, why did you not mention this originally??

If you look carefully at the one piece I posted as an 1866 era piece, you can see that the suspension is distinctly thicker than all the subsequent examples. The second MEZ1 I posted is clearly a later example by Wagner.

So where do we stand with this? We have 3 distinct variations per your earlier post.

AW

W

Unmarked

Is the unmarked example made by one of these 2 makers?

These details would seem to contradict the details published on your site with respects to the GMVKand the MEZ1 having to be identical???????

Edited January 3, 2006 by stogieman

[Stogieman]

Or.......... does the statement that they must be identical pertain strictly to later examples by Wagner?

Did Werner make earlier examples of the GMVK in gold? At what point did Wagner become the Jeweler of choice??

Just trying to make sense of these seemingly different makers, different eras and different information. Thanks!

[medalnet]

Please, not Werner. Emil August Wagner. Following the literature it was him together with Mr. Sy who bought the Hossauer firm in 1859 - Sy & Wagner.

We do know that the Sy & Wagner firm was eventually taken over by Johann Wagner approx mid 1880th and used from then on the W mark.

Anyway, the evolution of those "Verdienste um den Staat" crosses towards those 'Militaerverdienst" crosses took many steps. Unfortunately not all archive documents have been found or survived to give us 100% closure yet.

The statement about being identical pertains to the same tooling only. In this case Wagner. One can see that the earlier pieces have that destinctive S in Verdienst. The lower part of the S is always closed, yet the S on Wagner variation is open.

The really early ones are those being unmarked. Early pieces of the new 1863/4 style were definetly hollow their forefathers, the "Verdienst um den Staat" crosses. Even silver had more value to a certain point then hourly labor.

For those really wanting to go into detail on those crosses and medals should get their hands on copies of the :"Money Trend" maganzine #3 & #4 from 1995

[medalnet]

Sorry, I didn't mention: almost all early Prussian Merit crosses have the thin loop. In my experience the later crosses come with those big, more round Oesen.

What would the English term for Oese be, anyway?

[Stogieman]

OK, just a quick question: If S&W becomes Wagner (W) ca. 1880...... then who was the S&W attributed to Sy & Wagner ca. 1914-18 and often found marking WW1 EK1??

Sorry about the Werner thing...... sometimes the fingers work faster than the brain, or vice versa!

Then...... (OK, more than 1 question)

The example I show in posts #6 & #8 is a known ca. 1866 example. We know the seller stripped an original bar to sell the piece. We know the cross is authentic....... however the ?se is much fatter than the thin examples shown by WildCard! Where does this fit in??????????

[Stogieman]

PS, I don't think there's an english equivalent to ?se, (oese).... maybe "suspension knob", or "suspension ring"...... somehow ?se just feels more korekt!

[medalnet]

OK, just a quick question: If S&W becomes Wagner (W) ca. 1880...... then who was the S&W attributed to Sy & Wagner ca. 1914-18 and often found marking WW1 EK1??

Sorry about the Werner thing...... sometimes the fingers work faster than the brain, or vice versa!

Then...... (OK, more than 1 question)

The example I show in posts #6 & #8 is a known ca. 1866 example. We know the seller stripped an original bar to sell the piece. We know the cross is authentic....... however the ?se is much fatter than the thin examples shown by WildCard! Where does this fit in??????????

As I said, we do not everything. Are there prooven facts about Sy & Wagner being arround during WWI making medals? I do know S W markes on Red Eagle Order Grand Cross Stars. Yet they all have Silver gilt centers. I was always under the impression that the S would stand for "Silver gilt" in order to have a way of seperating Gold and gilt Silver from each other. This was common practice to not mix those by accident.

In reagrds to the 1866 bar. It is possbile, just possible that the bar was assembled later and a later piece was used to complete the bar.

It is a fact that the early pieces Especially those predecessors are hollow made and have small Oesen. Sorry to offer only a scan from a photocopy, but I don't have better pictures. Example a) is the 3rd type "Verdienst um den Staat", b) is the first type "Kriegsverdienst, which we believe to be the initial hollow made type, just like b) is made hollow.

Both crosses have small/thinn Oesen.

Edited January 4, 2006 by medalnet

[Biro]

......As I said, we do not everything. Are there prooven facts about Sy & Wagner being arround during WWI making medals?...

At the risk of turning this in the wrong direction....

There was some study done of an S-W marked 1914 EK1 here..... http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2334 - the recipient is ...er... 'well known' and even if the pin is a replacement (which it could very well be), why the S-W designation on a pin replaced presumably well after 1914?

As Stogie has suggested, an extremely confusing scenario if indeed S-W is in fact Sy Wagner (as we commonly beleive) and Andreas is correct about the J Wagner takeover of Sy Wagner mid 1880????

Carry on now...

Marshall

Edited January 4, 2006 by Biro

[medalnet]

I know it is confusing. Even I have a S-W Iron Cross 1st class.

The takeover by J.Wagner is, by the way, common believe. I guess I need to clarify this here. There are some indications that specific toolings were used before by Hossauer and afterwards by J. Wagner.

[Dave Danner]

?se means "loop" or "eye"; for our purposes, suspension loop or suspension ring is more correct. Suspension knob is probably more appropriate for thicker ones such as ball or barrel suspensions.

[medalnet]

Lots of English words for this poor old 3 letter German word: ?se

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I think that the word we're looking for here might be eyelet; but in my opinion, nothing says it like ?se. After all we're talking Imperial German here.

My vote - ?se!

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Dave Danner]

Gentlemen,

I think that the word we're looking for here might be eyelet; but in my opinion, nothing says it like ?se. After all we're talking Imperial German here.

My vote - ?se!

Best wishes,

Wild Card

An eyelet is a hole through an object. Cheap medals and medallions, such as some regimental commemoratives, have eyelets right through the medallion. Shoes with laces have eyelets.

The metal ring around the eyelet on a shoe, BTW, is a grommet. And an aglet is the sheath (often plastic) around a string or lace to make it easier to pass through the eyelet.

The ?se has an eyelet - the hole through which the ring passes - but is not itself an eyelet.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Dave Danner

[Wild Card]

As I said before...?se.

Edited January 5, 2006 by Wild Card