Beyond the pale

[Stuart Bates]

I was alerted to this helmet by Patrick - http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item33623c1c94 and was moved to say something. This is purported to be a helmet of the 1st Airshire Yeomanry - they cannot even get the spelling correct! My points are -

1. the regiment wore a black leather helmet with black plume until about 1893 and were dressed along the lines of the line Heavy Cavalry

2. in 1893 the regiment converted to a Hussar uniform, Busby with scarlet bag and white over red plume

3. the badge of the Ayrshire's was a lion's head with wings either side

4. The metal furniture would appear to be lifted from an 1871 pattern metal cavalry helmet

5. the spike base is from a cavalry,or Staff, Foreign Service Helmet

6. The lions' head bosses were for the Lancer regiments, although Yeomanry did what they liked but generally followed regular army units

7. the metal strip goes all the way around the helmet brim not just the front half as was the norm

8. What worries me is the pristine quality of the helmet, even, and especially, including the Hawkes stamp. This looks like a repro Home Service Helmet and a very well made one at that.

Stuart

Edited November 10, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[IrishGunner]

Stuart - thanks for the alert and discussion on a possible fake. While not my area of collecting, it's always good to keep aware of potential problems.

Edited: Great diligence and responsible responses Stuart - you are a credit to the GMIC.

Edited November 11, 2010 by IrishGunner

[servicepub]

I was alerted to this helmet by Patrick - http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item33623c1c94

Stuart

Ugly beast. Should be shot and put out of its misery.

[Stuart Bates]

Just had another look and note the four fixings to the inside crown around the spike's four spoke collet. Three seem to be some pop-rivet arrangement and the fourth perhaps a nut and bolt? Notice how one of the "pop-rivets" overlaps the collet.

The acanthus leaf base was held in place by the spike's thread as it screwed into the collet and not by any screw threads or whatever attached to the base itself.

Stuart

Edited November 6, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Mervyn Mitton]

Servicepub - do you mean Stuart ? You may have Nola hunt you down............

[servicepub]

Servicepub - do you mean Stuart ? You may have Nola hunt you down............

I meant the helmet....but now that you mention Stuart.....:whistle:

[Peter_Suciu]

As I told Stuart, this helmet is perfect for those who like Steam Punk (the science fiction genre centered in the Victorian Era). Both are absolute fantasy!

[Stuart Bates]

Clive and Mervyn,

how come I always seem to be part of a coconut shie? The wrong part at that

Stuart

BTW: I think the fourth fixing probably holds the backstrap in place.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

Just can't help myself, so asked why Airshire and not the correct spelling of Ayrshire.

Pushing the envelope but I hate these guys.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Well I got a response which said if I Googled I would find Airshire. I had already done this and Google asked me if I meant "Ayrshire." There was one entry for Airshire, Scotland but when I brought up the page it had Ayrshire all over it - another typo.

I see they have some further helmets but I won't go into detail about what is wrong with them. It is interesting to note that theyseem to be re-gilding everything, even parts of the metal furniture that should not be.

End of rant

Stuart

[Mervyn Mitton]

Stuart - older and more experienced members have a duty to point out suspect items - and indeed, the people who appear to be responsible. We must thankyou for your alertness. May I suggest that you post some of these suspect helmets - and then , point by point, tell us what you think is wrong. That is how we all learn. Mervyn

ps. I would urge moderation - most of our posts appear also on Google and then in the public domain , I think the laws of Libel may apply.

[Peter_Suciu]

I would urge moderation - most of our posts appear also on Google and then in the public domain , I think the laws of Libel may apply.

Mervyn-- I would agree that the posts could appear on Google, and that moderation is the best course (Stuart knows me very well, and if I'm recommending moderation it must be serious). But I'm a journalist and writer by trade, so I understand libel. It actually only applies if anything is said that is untrue.

Therefore if you make it about the helmets specifically and any communication then you are fine. Anything that is opinion based (e.g. "they are crooks") is what would get you in trouble. But if you are specific with the details, i.e, the helmet pattern never existed, the information about its history is incorrect, etc., then you are fine.

Just my two cents on the matter.

[joe campbell]

i hope you'll pursue this....

joe

[Stuart Bates]

Well Joe I did pursue it and I find that I now have to eat some humble pie.

I decided to check further into the Ayrshire Yeomanry and finally came up with a book titled A History of the Ayrshire Yeomanry, William Samuel Cooper, 1881.

It contains a photo showing the CO Lt Col C.V. Hamilton with this helmet beside him (see attachment). I downloaded the book as a PDF and apart from a reference to the uniform in 1804 nothing of the period in question i.e. 1878 - 1893.

However, the spelling of Airshire remains in question, and without a description of the helmet so do some of my other points. However, I do not know when this helmet was replaced by the black leather one that I mentioned.

I will not dig the hole that I have made for myself deeper but take this as a salutary lesson.

Stuart

[Peter_Suciu]

Stuart--

Well, what I dismissed as fantasy could be reality. We still don't know enough but I would have passed that helmet by at a show.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Very interesting - when the two top authors and researchers in this field can mistake an item - then it shows how careful you have to be when identifying from photos. Regarding the spelling - the phonetic style was used until quite late - my surname can have three variations and yet, there is only one family.

[Stuart Bates]

Hang on! On closer inspection it appears that the helmet may be made of leather, with an elongated front peak and without any trimming?

The chinchain is not obvious either.

Check out both photos as the blow-up is rather pixellated.

Any comments?

Stuart

Edited November 10, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Peter_Suciu]

Stuart--

My good friend, that photo looks like an ultrasound when it is blown up (the photo, not an ultrasound). I think we can determine this will be boy!

But in all seriousness, I would step back and say, I don't know. There is no way of judging from the photo. What color uniform is the man wearing? Compare his tunic to the helmet. We know he isn't wearing a leather tunic. That is cloth. The texture (in my opinion) is similar to the helmet. We can assume the boots are leather and those reflect light a bit differently.

What I need to see now is an example of the leather helmet. That would clarify matters. If we know there were leather examples and that no other Blue Cloth versions have appeared, and I've never seen a reference to one, then I would add that this suggests that Blue Cloths may not have been used. I know that is vague.

I will do some more research.

[Stuart Bates]

OK, I have done some more checking through a friend who belonged to the Scottish Military Society when it was operating.

I finally have to admit that I am wrong and the helmet is correct, even to the spelling of Airshire.

My apologies for making a mess of this.

Stuart

Edited November 10, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[jocktamson]

Don't lose any sleep over it Stuart, Ive been collecting Scottish Militaria, Uniforms, Helmets etc for a very long time and i have only ever come across this pattern of helmet once in the past and that was to the Lanarkshire Yeomanry.

The Airshire on the helmet plate I would have questioned as well, I have lived 38 miles from Ayrshire my whole life and have never once read, seen or heard of it with the Airshire spelling. I can understand your concerns regarding this helmet, the condition looks too good to be true and anything that's been re-gilded immediately puts me on my guard anyway, I would have put this down as a fake also if i hadn't seen the Lanarkshire Yeomanry helmet in the past. This trend for re-gilding thats sprung up recently with several helmets appearing on eBay from the same couple of sellers makes me very suspicious. Why give yourself the added expense of re-gilding in the first place? an original helmet without the re-gilding usually fetches just as much on eBay anyway, i just don't get it.... as a collector i would rather have an original helmet minus the gilding, than a sparkling bright new helmet that's been re-gilded, but that's a personal choice.

Edit:

I did a little snooping around and discovered this helmet plate for sale in a Bosley's sale on the 5th March 2007 with the Airshire spelling....a lesson to us all methinks.

92. 1st Airshire Yeomanry OR's helmet plate circa 1817-27.

A fine and scarce die-stamped brass example. Star of the Order of the Thistle bearing oval inscribed "1st Airshire Yeomanry". To the centre, St. Andrew and the Cross. Two original lead soldered iron loops to reverse. VGC. (£300 - £400)

See "Scottish Regimental Badges 1793-1971" by W & K Bloomer No..257 for voided example.

Bosleys Sale March 2007

Edited November 11, 2010 by jocktamson

[pjac]

The Bosley's reference also seems to explain why the plate in the photo Stuart discovered appears to be voided , whilst the plate on the ebay helmet is solid. I used to live in Ayrshire and like Jock had never seen this spelling. That's one of the reasons I flagged this up to Stuart in the first place, along with the fact that the badge was nothing like the Ayrshire Yeomanry device I know and the fact that the helmet was such a strange mixture of parts. Well, we've all learned something!

Patrick

[servicepub]

I don't think that anybody need flog themselves over this. As in much research one starts with an assumption and then follows it through to proof for or against. The fact that the initial assumption was that the helmet was a fake and then the gradual discovery of evidence to the contrary shows that the research was done with an open mind and the willingness to alter our points of view depending on the evidence.

Well done to all.

[Mervyn Mitton]

I think it turned out to be a very interesting and informative post - always good to watch experts in a subject check things out.

Therefore Stuart - we have all decided that you are spared from drinking the cup of Hemlock - but, only on this one occasion..........

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think it turned out to be a very interesting and informative post -

Agreed!

[snowford]

I have both a helmet plate and also a blue cloth helmet as in the picture provided and whereas the helme has a couple of re gilded bits ( spike and possibly chain) I am Ok with them and am familiar with the badge in Bloomers.

When I learn how to upload pix I will be glad to share

all the best

Keir