Brasil WW1 War Cross

[Tim B]

I have my eye on something and never knew these even existed. Anyone have information relating to these and how many may have been awarded?

Thanks in advance!

Tim

[Tim B]

You can still see the Portuguese influence in the design, even to include the spelling of Brasil (Brazil).

Here's the Portuguese WW1 War Cross:

Tim

[paul wood]

I have my eye on something and never knew these even existed. Anyone have information relating to these and how many may have been awarded?

Thanks in advance!

Tim

It was awarded to every Brazilian service man who was serving during the period 1917-18 so presumably a reasonable number. I have handled a few of them.

Paul

[Chris Boonzaier]

You can still see the Portuguese influence in the design, even to include the spelling of Brasil (Brazil).

Here's the Portuguese WW1 War Cross:

Tim

The Portuguese seem to have used the French Croix D Guerre as a starting point...

[JBFloyd]

This is the combatant version; the non-combatant version has white stripes on the ribbon instead of black. Regulations called for a Roman numeral to be engraved on the upper obverse arm, denoting the number of "semesters" (6-month periods) the recipient served outside of Brazil.

The primary recipients were the Brazilian Navy personnel who served in the Atlantic. They were on anti-submarine patrol in an area roughly from the Azores to the eastern tip of Brazil to Dakar, West Africa. A small aviation contingent served with the Royal Air Force in France. The non-combatant version went mostly to members of a medical mission sent to France.

The Spanish influenze proved more deadly than the U-boats. The flu swept through the fleet and several of the ships reported only 10% of their crews were able to function. There is a cemetery in Dakar full of Brazilian Navy personnel who died from the flu.

There is a much more common French- or Portuguese-made copy made for the collector's market. That was created by putting new centers on a Portuguese War Cross body (very bulbous and with pebbled arms). These copies have an "VIII" struck as part of the design on the upper arm.

[Tim B]

Thanks guys!

Jeff,

I don't see any stamps in the upper cross arm on this example, so do you think this one might have actually been unissued? I have an opportunity to go for this one, as well as a rather nice Portuguese War Cross, but probably not both. I have been after the Portuguese version for sometime now but, just how scarce are these Brazilian pieces?

Thanks again gentlemen!

Tim

[JBFloyd]

While the regulation called for numbers, I've only seen one that actually had a number engraved. I suspect that most were simply sent out without engraving.

If you have to make a choice, take the Brazilian piece. Portuguese War Crosses are scarce, but Brazilian War Crosses are rare. You'll always be able to find a Portuguese War Cross. I'd guess that I've seen 10 Portuguese for every Brazilian.

[Tim B]

Thanks Jeff!

Tim

[lambert]

It was founded in August 1922 to honor all those who participated, apart from the Brazilian territory, operations related to the First World War between 26 October 1917 and November 11, 1918. It is therefore not, as is often read, a Croix de Guerre but a commemorative medal shaped cross. To distinguish between combatants and noncombatants (medical personnel, crews of the merchant marine, administrative staff), the order of creation includes two ribbons:

• Veterans : orange with three black stripes 3mm wide, one center and two sides. It covers all military personnel, the vast majority of recipients who served in the Navy. According to Nat Futterman and Jeffrey Floyd - "Brazil's Cross Campaign 1917-1918" , The Medal Collector (OMSA), March 1996 - the number of beneficiaries would be around 960.
• noncombatants : the same except that the stripes are white instead of black. According to the same sources, the number of claimants for this alternative band would be around 360.

There are several manufactures who can sketch a typology.

1st type : model made by the Casa da Moeda Rio de Janeiro (the equivalent of the Monnaie de Paris in France). It is a bronze cross and hit very flat in one piece. The center of the obverse shows the Southern Cross found on the Brazilian national flag. On the edge of the bottom branch is the inscription Casa da Moeda , and on the edge of the left branch, registration Rio . This first type is the official model.

2nd type : it is identical to the previous model but it would be a privately held manufacturing may be used across the Rio de la Monnaie. The big difference is the lack of markings on the branches.

3rd kind : model also manufacture private, probably Brazil, but with significant differences compared with the two previous types.

4th type : French made (it is found on the catalog Delande 1934), it is sometimes considered a "copy" for collectors. Her appearance betrays its origins as it is developed as the French Croix de Guerre: fairly thick, the centers reported and a grainy background. In addition, he is the only one to carry on the obverse, in the upper branch of the cross, the Roman numeral VIII to recall the 8 semesters long war. Cest probably the model more "common".

The original text in French. was translated into English.

Lambert

Edited January 21, 2011 by lambert

[Tim B]

Lambert,

Thank you for the very detailed response!

So, am I correct to say this one posted is a "Type 1"?

Tim

[lambert]

Commemorative Cross 1917-1918, Type 1 Tape fighter, obverse and reverse.

Commemorative Cross 1917-1918, Type 2 tape fighter, obverse and reverse.

Commemorative Cross 1917-1918, type 3, non-combatant ribbon, obverse and reverse. On the obverse, on the upper branch of the cross is the Roman numeral II (Private etching according to the authors cited above) that refers to the two halves of war to which the recipient would have participated ...

Commemorative Cross 1917-1918, Type 4 tape fighter, obverse and reverse.

I got 99% that this is the Type 1

Lambert

.

Edited January 21, 2011 by lambert

[lambert]

Thanks guys!

Jeff,

I don't see any stamps in the upper cross arm on this example, so do you think this one might have actually been unissued?

Tim

1st type : model made by the Casa da Moeda Rio de Janeiro (the equivalent of the Monnaie de Paris in France). It is a bronze cross and hit very flat in one piece. The center of the obverse shows the Southern Cross found on the Brazilian national flag. On the edge of the bottom branch is the inscription Casa da Moeda , and on the edge of the left branch, registration Rio . This first type is the official model.

So I was wrong.

This medal is a type 2. (unmarked)

Lambert

Edited January 22, 2011 by lambert

[Tim B]

Thanks again Lambert!

Thanks for adding the PIC's as well. I'm sure others down the road will appreciate the additions to the thread.

Tim

[Tim B]

Well, somebody wanted it more than I did but, I did manage to get that Portuguese War Cross afterall.

Many thanks all, and now I have something different to hunt for.

Tim

[lilo]

Hello All,

I have re-opened this discussion because there is something not clear to me ….

 

On “ID: 5” moderator JBFloyd write :

“There is a much more common French- or Portuguese-made copy made for the collector's market. That was created by putting new centers on a Portuguese War Cross body (very bulbous and with pebbled arms). These copies have an "VIII" struck as part of the design on the upper arm.”

 

On “ID: 9” member Lambert write :

“There are several manufactures who can sketch a typology :

…………Omissis………….

4th type : French made (it is found on the catalog Delande 1934), it is sometimes considered a "copy" for collectors. Her appearance betrays its origins as it is developed as the French Croix de Guerre: fairly thick, the centers reported and a grainy background. In addition, he is the only one to carry on the obverse, in the upper branch of the cross, the Roman numeral VIII to recall the 8 semesters long war. Cest probably the model more "common".”

 

My Question :

I would like to know if we must consider the Brazilian WW1 Cross produced in France as a "copy for collectors" or simply a ‘4th type different manufacture’.

I’m asking this because Lambert reported that the type (4^th) produced in France is : “found on the catalog Delande 1934” so I don’t think that in that period there were such a number of collectors to justify the production of such a cross. I ask all of you to give your precious opinions about the exact nature of this ‘France made Cross’ and in particular I wait for an answer from Lambert and JBFloyd .

 

Awaiting to hear from you

ATB

Mauro

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by lilo

[JBFloyd]

I have no problem calling the French-made version a Type 4, although that gives it more official status than it ever appears to have had.  Numismatically, it clearly is different from the other types and is familiar to the collecting community.  Maybe "Repro Type1", like Laslo's classification of Victory Medals.

While Delande showed an illustration in his 1934 book, it was a drawing and not a photograph.  It is entirely possible that Delande's illustration was the basis for the production of the medal and not the result of Delande having a Type 4 medal.  Can anyone document the existence of this medal prior to Deland's 1934 publication date?

I don't know the size of the medal-collecting community (probably more coin collectors than true medal collectors), but their presence brought the production of a wide range of copy US Victory Medal clasps. There certainly weren't enough US soldiers in France in the 1920s to justify production of every Victory Medal clasp, plus several that never existed officially.

Edited March 5, 2016 by JBFloyd

[Tim B]

Some photos are gone, so I'll post some old file pics I've saved over the years; don't remember where they came from anymore.

First, another example similar to the one Jeff shows with the "VIII" on the upper obverse arm, but a bit larger pic and obv/rev:

 

This one has the "II" on the upper arm and is, according to Lambert's earlier post #3, a Type 3 medal.  I also have a lousy pic of this version with the non-combatant (white striped) ribbon.

Tim

Edited March 6, 2016 by Tim B

[lilo]

Hello Jeff,

Many tank for your comments… (also to Tim B for the photos posted !)

At this point, can we consider the France made cross as an ‘unofficial type’ instead of a "Repro Type1" or a ‘copy for collector’ ?

I’m asking this because :

1) Am I wrong or we have NOT a proof that it was issued for the collector market ? If yes, where it is documented ?

2) Jeff You say : “it is entirely possible that the Delande’s illustration was the basis for  the medal”. May I ask you why it shouldn’t be the exact contrary ? (i.e. that Delande, as a medal producer, could have produced this Cross and than advertised it in one of his catalogues as it should normally was made with other medals ?)

3) Have we proof of the exact period when this cross was struck ? If not, I think that we cannot speculate that the Delande’s illustration was used, later in the years (then, when exactly ?), to produce a cross for collectors or Am I wrong ? (and if so, why ?)

4) I think that an ‘unofficial’ production is more refined than a ‘Copy’ or ‘Repro’ one and that the France made Brasilian Cross is a very good production being a struck and well defined piece (if not, for example, why to produce a new die to insert a "VIII" struck as part of the design on the upper arm ?)

Last, we must not forget that after a war (and in the following years) there is a very high request of medals from the veterans and, pending the numbers to produce of a data decoration, one or two Companies/Producers cannot be able in satisfying the huge request so here the flourish of the numerous Unofficial Types by different producers.

Than back to the start, what do you think about an ‘Unofficial type’ ?

 

ATB

Lilo

Edited March 6, 2016 by lilo

[JBFloyd]

"Unofficial Type" would work fine for me.