British Victory Medals

[Kev in Deva]

As we start out, we can use this thread for British Victory Medals, award documents, variations in medals/ribbons, etc.

As

there are a couple of pre-existing threads on the Brit Vic's already, I

will try to have Nick move those into this thread. This will be the

main thread from this point on.

Tim

British & South African Victory Medals:-

Left to right: S.A. U.K. U.K.

British Mini front.

Size 18mm.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited February 23, 2013 by IrishGunner

[Kev in Deva]

Rears:-

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[RobW]

To all,

To change the direction a little here is a nice small British vic mini group.

L-R; 1914 Star with bar, British War Medal in silver (marked STERLING on the reverse suspension arm), vic with Mentioned-In-Despatches emblem, French War Cross 1914-1918 with palm, and Long Service & Good Conduct Medal.

What caught my eye was the original silk ribbons, the inclusion of the French War Cross, and the fact that the recipient had engraved his regimental details on the reverse of the suspender bar behind the pin. It is normally difficult to research mini groups as they are not named but in this case the group is attributed.

Non British awards, like the French War Cross, are normally seen at the end of British Groups after all British awards but in this case it appears the recipient placed it where he wanted it !

Regards,

Rob

Edited September 8, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

And here are the reverses. Not the mark STERLING which is just visible on the reverse arm of the British War Medal.

Regards,

Rob

Edited September 8, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

To all,

Here is another small vic mini group in my collection. It is 'court mounted' where the ribbon forms part of the backing behind the medal in contrast to the 'swing mount' mini group previously posted.

L-R:

* Distinguished Service Order (with nice complete un-chipped enamels and intact top and bottom bars).

* Military Cross.

* 1914 Star with bar.

* British War Medal.

* Victory medal with Mention In Despatches emblem.

* Defence Medal.

* King George V Silver Jubilee Medal 1935.

The Military Cross and other medals (War Medal, Defence Medal and Jubilee medal) are made of silver which has toned nicely giving a slightly iridescent patina depending on the angle and lighting when it is viewed.

Regards,

Rob

Edited September 14, 2009 by RobW

[Tim B]

Don't want to change directions too much here but, my last two are British and I thought I would post them now and just follow from here on.

Tim

Here's one to a Royal Engineer with the typical brite gold finish.

[Tim B]

Personal data:

[Tim B]

Here's one a bit different and I initially thought (hoped) I had picked up one of the early pieces that were not gilted. The ribbon is slightly different as well and note the green.

[Tim B]

I think this is just another ordinary one where the gilt finish has worn off as there are traces in the grooves. Not sure what LEIC stands for? I assume the "R" after that indicates "Reserves"?

Tim

Edited October 2, 2009 by Tim B

[RobW]

Here's one a bit different and I initially thought (hoped) I had picked up one of the early pieces that were not gilted. The ribbon is slightly different as well and note the green.

Tim,

The major difference between a Great Britain type 1 and type 2 would relate to the finish and the suspender and time of issue. You are correct that the type 1 had a more chocolate or brown appearance, compared to the more commonly seen shiny appearance one. The areas to look at are the barrel suspender; on the type 1 it has been soldered to the planchet whereas with the type 2 it is actually part of the planchet.

In other forums and in particular Great Britain, it has been noted that a number of type 1 Great Britain vics have been seen amongst officer groups and were sent to the recipient between October-November 1920 or at the least before the decision was made to change to a shiny finish with integrated suspender in early 1921. The easiest way to check when a Great Britain recipient was awarded his vic is to conduct some research and obtain the Medal Index Card (MIC). That provides detail on medal entitlements, entry in theatres of war, units and ranks.

In addition a recent article on the type 1 and type 2 Great Britain vic was published in the journal of the Orders and Medals Research Society of Great Britain (OMRS). That may be worth a look at as well. Of course there is in addition, a number of different 'tailors copies' of the Great Britain vic that have also been identified.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 3, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

I think this is just another ordinary one where the gilt finish has worn off as there are traces in the grooves. Not sure what LEIC stands for? I assume the "R" after that indicates "Reserves"?

Tim

Tim,

I think that you will find that the abbreviation in this case stands for 'The Leicestershire Regiment'. It is common for Great Britain vics (as well as Aust, NZ, Canadian & Indian) to have the unit impressed at the end after the recipients regimental details.

It is the presence of this detail which makes it much fun and of interest as you can then research the 'person behind the medal'. If you post the details of the recipient, including the service number some research can be conducted.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

To all,

Here are some pics of a Great Britain Great War trio (1914 Star with Aug-Nov bar, British War Medal, & vic) with a Mention-In-Despatches (MID) on the vic. Of note is that the vic is a type 1. This is the rarer of the two Great Britain vics and is not often seen. It has a barrel suspender that is soldered to the planchet, is of a chocolate brown colour and has a reduced level of detail than the type 2. This reduced level of detail is attributable to the 'sandblasting' that was used to achieve the dark finish required.

The type 1 vics were issued between July - November 1920 or at least before the decision was made to change to a shiny finish where the suspender was not soldered, but actually cut out of the planchet. This changeover occurred in early 1921.

Close-up pics to follow.

Hope this helps others.

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 10, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

Here are the close-ups. Note the shallower detail and barrel suspender that is soldered to the planchet. This solder is visible on the reverse rear of the barrel.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Rob,

Excellent and thanks for posting those. I really like that MID on the VIC.

I think I missed out on a recent ebay piece that I thought might have been, but the detail just wasn't there. Oh well, now I know what to look for.

Tim

[RobW]

To all,

Here is the ribbon bar for the Great Britain group of 3 above (post # 12).

The silver rosette on the 1914 Star denotes the award of the 'Aug-Nov' bar as is the miniature MID device on the vic ribbon.

Regards,
Rob

Edited February 23, 2013 by IrishGunner

[RobW]

Thanks for the information on mine; once I have some free time, I may try to find out more on the two British ones I have.

Tim

Tim,

A good place to start in the research for U.K. medals is the National Archives. They have a web presence at:

http://www.nationala...ocumentsonline/

This has links to all the services as well as Army specific links to the Medal Index Cards, an electronic copy of which can be paid for and downloaded.

You could also look at Ancestry.co.uk.

It has a military search area as well with links to service records, pension records, and medal rolls among others.

http://search.ancest...ult.aspx?cat=39

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 16, 2009 by RobW

[Thomas Symmonds]

Hello All -

I like to think that these two realy are a pair, but I have to take the bloke I purchased them from word on that. Never the less they do make a great pairing.

I managed to add in my match stick for the next one.

I do not own one of Mr Laslo's "bibles" yet, (if anyone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it), so any opinions on what make, type, version or fake ( ) the full size is would be great.

and just for fun - the detail on the mini.

best regards

Thomas

[RobW]

Hello Thomas,

The full-size medal looks okay as an official type 2 Great Britain variety (with W.McM designers name on the obverse), and the mini has a nice finish as well. The ribbon appears to be the correct type as it was slightly wider than the French or other country ribbon at 38 mm. As you have only posted the obverse of the full-size vic it is difficult to tell if the medal is a standard Great Britain type or the bi-lingual South African type.

Considering these were sold as a pair, (full-size and mini) you do need to consider where the recipients other medals are. It is unusual but not necessarily untoward that you could find a single vic with an MID both full size and mini. Due to overlapping award criteria the victory medal was not awarded by itself. There should be, at the least, an accompanying British War medal and, if the person served in a designated theatre of war between August 1914 and before the end of 1915, also a 1914-15 Star. In many cases the British War Medal was subsequently sold for the silver content or melted down, leaving a lot of Great War trio's or pairs minus the BWM and thus a 'broken' group.

I would conduct some research with the vendor in question in order to ascertain what other awards the recipient may have and where they might be.

In that regard having the persons regimental details impressed on the rim will allow for some detailed research to be conducted. In addition, as there is a Mention-In-Despathces (MID) emblem on the full-size and mini, there should also be the opportunity to check the relevant Gazettes to confirm that the MID was awarded and for what actions it may have been awarded. Having the MID should make the recipient a little easier to research as all MID's were gazetted and are thus checkable.

If you go to an earlier post on this thread there are some web-links to the National Archives in the U.K which may be of help. Of course this is all moot if the recipient is a South African so research would have to be re-directed to the appropriate places there if that is the case.

As for the Laslo volumes I would recommend that you attempt to locate a copy of the 2nd edition. It updated the first edition in a lot of areas and, with the exception of the Battle Clasp matrix for the U.S. Victory medal, there is nothing that is not contained in the 2nd edition. The last time I checked there was a copy listed at 'abebooks.com' and a number of copies listed on 'used.addall.com' although none of the copies are cheap. After that there is always the on-line auction option.

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 21, 2009 by RobW

[Guest Darrell]

To all,

Here is the ribbon bar for the Great Britain group of 3 above (post # 161).

The silver rosette on the 1914 Star denotes the award of the 'Aug-Nov' bar as is the miniature MID device on the vic ribbon.

Regards,

Rob

Here's my trio with the rosette attached to the medal bar. Unusual, but interesting none the less:

[Guest Darrell]

Closeup of Rosette:

[Guest Darrell]

Closeup of Bar:

[RobW]

To all,

Seems things are a bit quiet around here at the moment.

Here is another 'swing-mounted' Great Britain mini group.

This time it is without the miniature M.I.D on the vic and has a 1914-15 Star instead of the previously shown 1914 Star & bar. It is a nice small group showing previous service in the Boer War of 1899-1902 indicated by the Queens South Africa medal with 3 clasps. The vic mini also has a very good level of detail.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

Here's another example of ones I watch out for as IMO, they have been played with, possibly to add clasps. Note the stitching above the top clasp (under the attachment pin). I used to see these more often a few years ago. Shame really; never understood why they didn't open the ring, but then again, I have seen medals where the bars did not slide on the ribbon, so...

Tim

Tim,

The UK did it right, Name, Service number, Rank, and Unit, it is a shame the US vic decided not to follow their lead. But exploring clasps, ribbons, brooches, boxes and ect, ect., holds a lot of interest for me.

Question, are there a lot or any bogus Uk vic's out there and if so, can you in lighting me? All I know is the ribbon on the UK vic is not as big a deal as it is on US vic, or is it?

JM

Edited December 8, 2009 by johnnymac

[RobW]

Tim,

Question, are there a lot or any bogus Uk vic's out there and if so, can you in lighting me? All I know is the ribbon on the UK vic is not as big a deal as it is on US vic, or is it?

JM

Hello JM,

I am not sure what you mean by 'bogus' UK vic but I would suggest it is harder to fake or create a fantasy group as Great Britain vics, and Commonwealth medals are generally issued named. Hence it would be relatively easy to check the recipients medal entitlement. If another medal, named to a different person showed up in a group it would be discounted and suspect. There are of course exceptions with official re-naming due to original naming errors but something as obvious as another persons details would be immediately noticed.

There is a practice where medals are 'name erased'. In these cases the details of the original recipient are removed by filing leaving a 'clean medal'. It is again relatively easy to spot these re-named items as the edge has a curved appearance and not flat and the medal circumference is a bit narrower where the filing has been done. In some cases these name erased items are used to complete a group where the originals have been split, and an unnamed original is not available, but it has also been seen where certain vendors have been known to insert other renamed or unnamed originals into a group to increase the price etc...

Unnamed as issued Great Britain vics are in the market although they are not that common. Unnamed examples of the South African victory are also infrequently seen as it was produced in London and then shipped to South Africa unnamed for later naming and awarding.

As far as the ribbon is concerned there is a particular style and shade of Great Britain vic ribbon. It is wider at 38 mm and has a thin white edging. Examples of this ribbon has been posted previously on this thread in Great Britain groups (post #161) as well as the corresponding ribbon bar (post # 174).

Once the medals are mounted, either swing mounted (posts #85 & #161), or court mounted (post #107) the ribbon is fixed and can't be tampered with without evidence of it having being changed.

I hope this has helped in some way to answer the question.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

I haven't seen too many suspicious British medals and the only ones that I hear are being faked are the WWII Star Medals/groups. I honestly haven't collected in that area, so I don't know.

Tim