FAKES!

[lambert]

Vic Cuban False

lamentably the auction ended ..

U$ 249,00
I pity those who bought it .. (or not) ..

Lambert

[lambert]

for all

Attention. other "A rare WW1 Victory Medal Cuba", being sold on ebay

121196206299

Lambert

[RobW]

Hello Lambert,

An interesting piece indeed. On close-up it appears to be a cast copy. The 'C Charles' makers mark on the obverse appears clean but with no pictures of the rim, to check for the 'AC' and BRONZE marks, it will be difficult to be definitive either way.

Regards,
Rob

Edited October 29, 2013 by RobW

[johnnymac]

Hello Lambert & Rob,

Here are two things I find interesting. The first, as Rob pointed out, is the crispness of the name C Charles marking. Second is the smoothness of the suspension ball, where the two surfaces do not match each other condition.

Regards

[IrishGunner]

I know less than 5,000 of the ITALY Clasp were issued... I've had this one for 7-8 years and this is the first scan - the clasp is particularly dirty. So, what do you all think?

Edited to add: Identified as a FAKE. See more info in this thread.

Edited November 9, 2013 by IrishGunner

[johnnymac]

Hello IrishGunner

What we have here is, Good and Bad news. The Italy is not good but the English is an original clasp,

(Click the photo to enlarge it). - The top clasp is your clasp, and the bottom is my original Italy. Also I posted below my Italy your England clasp, note how the letters of these two clasp match each other.

Regards, Jim

Edited October 31, 2013 by johnnymac

[IrishGunner]

Hello IrishGunner

What we have here is, Good and Bad news. The Italy is not good but the English is an original clasp,

(Click the photo to enlarge it). - The top clasp is your clasp, and the bottom is my original Italy. Also I posted below my Italy your England clasp, note how the letters of these two clasp match each other.

Regards, Jim

Jim, thanks for showing the original examples. Very clear. I am not surprised at the Italy being fake. Like I said, I bought these so many years ago - when I wasn't very informed. At least the thread can continue to educate others...

[RobW]

To all,

I would agree that upon reviewing there is also the possibility that this example is actually an official strike. It certainly looks a nice strike but again without a look at the rim, we shall never know.

Regards,
Rob

[ThaiDave]

However, even a hallmark on the rim doesn't say much.

Mike Shank aka mcstls is a case in point.

Another good example: nearly all the Thai Rama V 1900's eras medals fakes floating around also have quality hallmarks...

If someone can fake a medal well enough that it is not easy to spot, they can certainly fake a hallmark...

Rgds,

[johnnymac]

ThaiDave, I could not agree more with your statement posted in #131

If we accept everything that seems to be a different type, we are adding to the injustice of promoting fakes. “Just because a young men rings your door bell wearing a suit and tie does not make him a gentlemen”. That’s why he must earn your trust through a “long” courtship with your daughter and family.

There are so many lies and fakes out there hiding under the umbrella as an unofficial medal. I ask…. are we making the original issue medals almost worthless and making the unknown quantities of unofficial medals more desirable? I believe the driving force behind this trend is the lack of availability of some of the rare medals and the need to have something special in one’s own collection.

I think a medal that is undocumented and its origins of manufacturer is without question unclear, we need to stop classing it as “another unofficial” medal from a country it seems to represent. Rather we should put this unknown suspect under the light and grill it until the truth about it is known.

Regards, Jim

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

The thing that would worry me if I had bought this Cuba medal is the two sets of 'bubbles' in the shield. They don't appear on any of the official or unofficial types I have seen in hand or in photos - signs of casting?

Bill

[johnnymac]

Good Find Bill,

Jim

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

I see a Polish Vcitory medal - RP reverse, barrel suspension - sold for $180 on eBay last night. It started at $49 - my modest bid was trampled underfoot in the last hour!

Bill

[RobW]

Hello Bill,

While most collectors know the Polish vic is a pure fantasy item it still doesn't stop them from selling. I have them mainly for educative purposes.

I am sure that new 'old' ones will appear on ebay in the future.

Regards,
Rob

[lambert]

ThaiDave, I could not agree more with your statement posted in #131

If we accept everything that seems to be a different type, we are adding to the injustice of promoting fakes. “Just because a young men rings your door bell wearing a suit and tie does not make him a gentlemen”. That’s why he must earn your trust through a “long” courtship with your daughter and family.

There are so many lies and fakes out there hiding under the umbrella as an unofficial medal. I ask…. are we making the original issue medals almost worthless and making the unknown quantities of unofficial medals more desirable? I believe the driving force behind this trend is the lack of availability of some of the rare medals and the need to have something special in one’s own collection.

I think a medal that is undocumented and its origins of manufacturer is without question unclear, we need to stop classing it as “another unofficial” medal from a country it seems to represent. Rather we should put this unknown suspect under the light and grill it until the truth about it is known.

Regards, Jim

Hello All.

In time for the party.

I agree with Jim, the last time I Vics a large number of "rare" for sale on ebay, let's say that this time, 90% and false. and many "variations" such as so-called unofficial medals, after all, how many types of "unofficial" exist? Sounds like a very good output for this type of medal (false) arranged to get higher prices.

The medal Cuba above is false, it is the same cast of English sells who copies on ebay for a very modest price, it reports that copies of these medals are rare.

Lambert

[lambert]

Hi Gents,

I see a Polish Vcitory medal - RP reverse, barrel suspension - sold for $180 on eBay last night. It started at $49 - my modest bid was trampled underfoot in the last hour!

Bill

Hi Bill.

I followed the auction Medal Polish, but I did not enter the contest, followed just to see how far the price would come ..

This is worrying.

Lambert

Edited November 5, 2013 by lambert

[lambert]

Hello everyone

Attention: New Victory medals and Claps (VIC U.S. , army and navy) for sale on Ebay, all seem to be copies made in sand molds included, copy of "copies" Vic Brazil and Siam, with also a false Vic Polish (copy .)
Are made in gold metal and rough.

here.

Best Regards

Lambert

[johnnymac]

please also check S&H is $9. Each set.

[RobW]

Hello everyone

Attention: New Victory medals and Claps (VIC U.S. , army and navy) for sale on Ebay, all seem to be copies made in sand molds included, copy of "copies" Vic Brazil and Siam, with also a false Vic Polish (copy .)

Are made in gold metal and rough.

Best Regards

Lambert

Hello Lambert,

They all have a small tab of velcro on the reverse with the country identifyer as well. This would suggest they have been produced for a board or some other display as a large group.

What is very interesting is the copy of the Polish fake. Seems very ironic that faked items are now being copied as if that gives them some form of legitimacy.

With the 100 year anniversary of the Great War approaching we might probably expect to see some more interest in the vic series as a result. At least new collectors have this resource available to assist them.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

What is interesting on this Polish medal is the name is not on the rim.

Jim

Edited November 9, 2013 by johnnymac

[lambert]

Hello Bill,

While most collectors know the Polish vic is a pure fantasy item it still doesn't stop them from selling. I have them mainly for educative purposes.

I am sure that new 'old' ones will appear on ebay in the future.

Regards,

Rob

This has already started happening ..

Lambert

[lambert]

Bill and all.
See the photos of the item for sale Vic Cuban suppose were made from the same mold. also includes the "signature" of the sculptor.

Edited November 9, 2013 by lambert

[Bilco]

Hi Lambert - Yes, it's got those two pairs of 'bubbles' as before!

Bill

[RobW]

Hi Lambert - Yes, it's got those two pairs of 'bubbles' as before!

Bill

Hello Lambert,

It appears that the mystery of the earlier cuban vic (posts #128 & #136) has been solved.

Regards,

Rob

Edited November 9, 2013 by RobW

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

The etsy web site http://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/60642739/antique-style-sterling-victory-angel-wwi?ref=market has a necklace with a Belgian vic as pendant - in silver:

The accompanying blurb says:

"A triple strand of Freshwater Pearls with Sterling Silver wire wrapping and clasp, upon which is draped a sterling silver antique reproduction Victory angel from WWI medal created by the famous Paul Dubois. The piece was cast from the original French piece over a century old, this lovely reproduction is hand crafted"

I passed the link on to Rob, who said:

"I have seen Belgian vics in silvered-bronze and silvered finish. I am aware of an example in silver-gilt with a hallmark on the suspension ring mainly because it is my collection. I have seen other vics from France that were also produced in a silvered-bronze or a gilt finish so it probably depended on how much money the person commissioning the piece had.

[This] ... is a cast copy in silver of the Belgian vic. This is most noticeable on the reverse. There was a similar cast copy of a Romanian vic discussed on the GMIC forum a little while ago."

That Romanian vic (post # 52 in this thread) sprang to my mind as well - makes you wonder if someone could put these castings on a piece of ribbon and try to pass it off as a real variant ....

The etsy site has a couple of real Belgian vics on necklaces http://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/64535350/art-nouveau-victory-angel-necklace-la?ref and http://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/162802758/winged-victory-antique-assemblage?ref=sr_gallery_17&ga

Bill

Edited November 23, 2013 by Bilco