FAKES!

[lambert]

Lambert

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

I have the odd doubt about this item on eBay - item no 221099863404

The photo appears to be in colour - there are bits of discolouration.

Bill

Edited August 16, 2012 by Bilco

[RobW]

Hi Gents,

I have the odd doubt about this item on eBay - item no 221099863404

The photo appears to be in colour - there are bits of discolouration.

Bill

Hello Bill,

It does appear to be a cast copy of the unofficial type 3. The lack of detail is especially noticeable on the reverse.

Regards,

Rob

[Kev in Deva]

With regards the last item, which is a Romanian Inter-Allied Victory Medal,

it has to be remembered that while Mr. Laslo, in his book identified 1 official Type and Type 1, 2, 3, 3a, Unofficial Types,

I have come across variations of the variations, so to speak, there were many small town production facilities turning out cast and stamped variations, immediate post WW1, while waiting for the Official Types to be forwarded from France, some slightly larger, in diameter, some thinner, and some in a bronze / brass or zinky type material, it also has to be remembered that these types were officialy authorised by a Royal decree.

Dismissing a medal out of hand, because of its apperance, with regards Romanian Victory medals is not in my opinion, a good idea.

A couple of years ago I came across a Romanian dealer from Bucharest selling recent made copies that he had sourced from the U.K.! apparant by their choclate colour and British variation ribbon, when I quired him he confirmed he obtained a job lot from the U.K.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[RobW]

With regards the last item, which is a Romanian Inter-Allied Victory Medal,

it has to be remembered that while Mr. Laslo, in his book identified 1 official Type and Type 1, 2, 3, 3a, Unofficial Types,

I have come across variations of the variations, so to speak, there were many small town production facilities turning out cast and stamped variations, immediate post WW1, while waiting for the Official Types to be forwarded from France, some slightly larger, in diameter, some thinner, and some in a bronze / brass or zinky type material, it also has to be remembered that these types were officialy authorised by a Royal decree.

Dismissing a medal out of hand, because of its apperance, with regards Romanian Victory medals is not in my opinion, a good idea.

A couple of years ago I came across a Romanian dealer from Bucharest selling recent made copies that he had sourced from the U.K.! apparant by their choclate colour and British variation ribbon, when I quired him he confirmed he obtained a job lot from the U.K.

Kevin in Deva.

Hello Kevin,

I'm not saying it is a fake; just that it appears to be a cast copy, or one with moulding flaws on the reverse, based on an unofficial type 3.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

Hi Kevin, you have many, many good points. However I am with Rob on this one. So what is the proper word or classification for this medal, reproduction, copy, unofficial,or fake? I think each of these words could be applied, but I think an unknown sand casting might be a better choice. Now with that said, if you were to ask me on personnel level, I would say it was a very poorly made fake sand casting of a Romanian Victory Medal. IMO

Nice posting Bill

Regards to all,

Jim

Edited August 17, 2012 by johnnymac

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Kevin, you have many, many good points. However I am with Rob on this one. So what is the proper word or classification for this medal, reproduction, copy, unofficial,or fake? I think each of these words could be applied, but I think an unknown sand casting might be a better choice. Now with that said, if you were to ask me on personnel level, I would say it was a very poorly made fake sand casting of a Romanian Victory Medal. IMO

Nice posting Bill

Regards to all,

Jim

Point taken, however a few of my thoughts with regards this:-

Page 7 of Mr. Laslo book says it for me, and I use as a very good guide:-

Official Issue:- . . . . . .

Reissue:- . . . . . .

Unofficial Issue:- A Victory Medal produced by a commercial firm and available from the firm or military out fitters for the purpose of providing to veterans a replacement medal of the official issue or an interrim medal to wear until distribution of the official issue.

Reproduction:- A Victory Medal produced by a commercial firm for the purpose of satisfyig the needs of Collectors.

Deciding on the best caegories and a suitable definition for each was only a part of the task of classsifying the different varieties of the Victory medal. The next step, and the hardest one, was the actual process of classifying; that is, assigning each varity under the appropriate category. (4) The results of the classification effort are summarized at the beginning of each chapter for each nation in the form of an easy reference Victory Medal checklist. The checklist and orther portions of the text undoubtedly contains errors and omissions, a condition entirely the fault of the author, which will hopefully be rectified as additional information on the subject is made known by members of that great body of phalerists.

(4) A specimen of the British, Unofficial Type 3 Rumanian, and U.S. Victory medal with a silver finish has been noted. Since the silver finish appears to have been aded to beautify the receipiant's medal after its issue or purchase, such specimens have not been catagorised as a basic type. Other examples with the added silver finish probably exsist throughout the Victory Medal series.

Period sand cast Romanian Victory medals are known to exsist of varying quality, many of the Romanian officer's bars on view in the Romanian Military Museum in Bucharest have unofficial WW1 Victory Medals on them with varying qualities of gilt / gilding.

I am living in Romania since 2002, I have not come across any modern Romanian made reproduction / fake Romanian Victory Medals, I have seen a model of a Romanian Victory medal being ofered out of the USA on ebay, where the designer name stands out in relief, rather than being engraved-moulded into the medal, this is an obvious fake.

During Mr. Laslo's time acces to information, even the varities of Romanian produced Inter-Allied Victory medals would have been hard, many Romanians hid them, along with the paper-work as they could land you in trouble under the Communist regime., since the Revolution in 1989, many Romanians have been able to go to Canada, many brought medals and other items out and sold them for a pittance, so its all probable that unknown examples of Romanian Inter-Allied Victory medals of varying quality could turn up.

Post W.W.1 up until about 1936 many Romanians emigrated to the U.S.A. / Canada and no doubt a few bought medals and other such items with them.

I would not dismiss such items, seen out of hand, by judging them on their poor quality as being a sign of a fake, if the price is right and a person is willing to take a gamble, you might very well have an original period piece.

But each to his own.

Kevin in Deva.

[Bilco]

Hi Kevin,

Many thanks for your input on this piece. It's plain that Romania has produced a lot of variants for their Victory medal, with differences in the details of the design and suspension. I've seen your postings on some of the variants - thank you for shedding some light on these medals. It's a fruitful area of collecting, although I'd cough a bit at paying $499! It depends how desperate you are for something potentially rare.

Bill

[johnnymac]

Question: How many Mono Lisa are there: The answer is that there are many, in fact dozens, of roughly-contemporary copies of the Mona Lisa, many better-looking than this one. There’s one at the Walters Museum in Baltimore that is closer to the original. ”Mona Lisa” was wildly influential and fashionable, particularly in France, after it had been acquired by Francois I after Leonardo’s death, and it entered the French royal collection

.

"In the art world the other Mona Lisa's are false or fake, but politeness in the art buying world they are called copies". Like the Mona Lisa, there was only the original Victory medal from each country, all the rest are whatever you think they are. :)

Edited August 17, 2012 by johnnymac

[Kev in Deva]

Sorry johnnymac, but again the information in Mr. Laslo book would contradict that "Mona Lisa" view:-

Page 81:- Rumania

"The Rumanian Victory Medal . . . . .The unofficial varities of the Rumanian Victory Medal may have been prompted by a provision in Decision No. 847 which allowed veterans, after obtaining the authorising brevet, to wear a facsimilie Victory Medal purchased from a commercial source until the official version was sent and received. Given this sanction, it is speculated that several military outfitters began to produce the Victory Medal in advance of the official striking to meet perceived demand among veterans. Lacking an official example to use as a model, these outfitters had to resort to drawings of the medals design to fashion the dies which made a refined product more difficult to achieve.

This, plus inferior manufacturing techniques and perhaps some haste resulted in crude interpritations of the Victory Medal. Nevertheless, a significant number of veterans purchased these copies, with and without the authorising brevet; and a few veterans undoubttedly never botherered to apply for the official issue after a copy of the Victory Medal was obtained. Once the copy was added to a medal group, it tended to remain there; and consequently, it is not unusual to finda genuine Romanian group that contains a facsimile Victory Medal.

I do not know of any other country that gave authorisation for unofficial Victory Medals such as the Romanians as by Decision No. 847.

Most variations of the Romanian Victory Medal that I have handled here in Romania, are time worn pieces, there was no effort on the original fabricator's to make a 100% exact copy, and they are not being produced to meet a demand in Romania, and they would appear to be little or any effort to sell them abroad.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[johnnymac]

Hi Kevin,

So your point is that anything made in Romanian is by decision No.847 unofficial? Would not that rule also cover all Romanian medals ever ones made in other countries since there was no effort by the original manufacturer or government to issue a standard medal?

Your quote of A. Laslo's book.

The unofficial verities of the Rumanian Victory Medal may have been prompted by a provision in Decision No. 847 which allowed veterans, after obtaining the authorizing brevet, to wear a facsimile Victory Medal purchased from a commercial source until the official version was sent and received. Given this sanction, it is speculated that several military outfitters began to produce the Victory Medal in advance of the official striking to meet perceived demand among veterans. Lacking an official example to use as a model, these outfitters had to resort to drawings of the medals design to fashion the dies which made a refined product more difficult to achieve.

May have been - tell me that Laslo did not know for sure.

speculated - Form's a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

So this whole paragraph you quoted is based on Laslo's own believes or conjecture.

Mr. Laslo put out a great book, but I known had he had full power of the internet as we do today, his book would have been different.

But like most great books, history has proven to us there is always something to be added, unless the book is not novel.

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Kevin,

So your point is that anything made in Romanian is by decision No.847 unofficial? Would not that rule also cover all Romanian medals ever ones made in other countries since there was no effort by the original manufacturer or government to issue a standard medal?

Your quote of A. Laslo's book.

The unofficial varieties of the Rumanian Victory Medal may have been prompted by a provision in Decision No. 847 which allowed veterans, after obtaining the authorizing brevet, to wear a facsimile Victory Medal purchased from a commercial source until the official version was sent and received. Given this sanction, it is speculated that several military outfitters began to produce the Victory Medal in advance of the official striking to meet perceived demand among veterans. Lacking an official example to use as a model, these outfitters had to resort to drawings of the medals design to fashion the dies which made a refined product more difficult to achieve.

May have been - tell me that Laslo did not know for sure.

speculated - Form's a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

So this whole paragraph you quoted is based on Laslo's own believes or conjecture.

Mr. Laslo put out a great book, but I known had he had full power of the internet as we do today, his book would have been different.

But like most great books, history has proven to us there is always something to be added, unless the book is not novel.

My relevant point comes from the Romanian perspective, being that with the Romanian Decision No. 847 there are in Romania enough examples / evidence to categorize many variants of the Romanian Victory medal that are known to exist in Romania, and which include those documented by Mr. Laslo plus others that I have come across here in Romania in the last 10 years, as being period pieces, these items do not, nor should they include the two known recent examples of reproductions, one from the USA with the name of the designer molded and standing proud of the medal, and a British reproduction (which when originally released on the market in the U.K. was being sold as a reproduction by the original maker, the chocolate brown type (in fact all the Inter-Allied medals were made in this same material by the manufacturer and all sold with the British version of the Inter Allied Victory Medal ribbon, many of this type turned up in Australia as well.

Fact:- The Romanian version of the Inter-Allied Victory medal issues were delayed by the fact that the French priority was to manufacture their own Victory medals before starting on the Romanian contract.

Fact:- That various unofficial varieties conforming to Mr. Laslo classification do exist on period Romanian Officer Medal bars.

Fact:- That I have seen among the varieties identified as per Mr. Laslo variations in diameter, design & material,

Again, I will point out there are many examples of unofficial Romanian victory medals on Romanian officers military medal bars in the Romanian Military Museum in Bucharest, as well as single Romanian medals presented for public view in the display cases to

NCO's and Privates as well as two examples to women for their services in Ww1.

Mr. Laslo attempts to identify the many variations of the Romanian Inter-Allied Victory Medal were extremely difficult in getting access to Romania in person during the communist period.

Indeed, it is sad that the late Mr. Laslo, did not have access to such a tool as the internet as I feel he would have been able to categorize even more variations.

I still stand by my claim that, its unwise to dismiss out of hand, any variations of the Romanian Inter-Allied Victory medal as being "FAKE" because of its appearance, I also re-state, that I have not come across, either at the "Targ de Collectioner" / "Day of the Collector" Fairs, in Romania, any recent made fakes, nor have I encountered any Fakes being offered on the national auction websites, in 10 years the only two examples are the ones listed in my post and originate outside of Romania, those engaged in faking tend to release quite a few items onto the market at the same time in an effort to get a return on their investment, classic example being the Polish Fantasy item, the Cuban, Brazilian, and Siam fakes that are known to exist.

Kevin in Deva.

[RobW]

Hello all,

I agree wholeheartedly that the term 'unofficial' coined by Alex Laslo is most appropriate when it comes to the Romanian locally produced models. There are variations and then there are variations of those variations. I have 4 Romanian groups; 3 with an unofficial Romanian vic and 1 with the official strike. It is this variety that makes collecting these items so interesting.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

To all,

Great points of discussion. Could I suggest that we re-copy these last couple of posts into the Romanian vic sub-thread as that will provide context in that area as well.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

Kevin, Your assumption is that this medal is a Romanian made medal when in fact you do not know where, or who made it, or even when it was made. The only fact that is known about this medal is it is poorly made and is possibly a sand cast medal! the truth of the matter is all the manufacturers all the Romanian medals are unknown, Laslo hints Paris, maybe, as this medal is being sold from Paris France, and not from Romania.

I for one passed on this item as being too costly at $500, and the bidding ended without one bid, so I guess I was not the only one passing on this medal.

Edited August 19, 2012 by johnnymac

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

I see our old friend mcstls on eBay is selling a Cuba vic with a very clear CHOBILLON signature on the obverse - item 221161410220. Also, the one that was for sale at $1300 - item 390492576759 (see page 2 of this thread, #29) - is now down to $1019.99, but still no takers - you have to admire the seller's persistence.

Bill

Edited December 4, 2012 by Bilco

[lambert]

He always cheats beginner collectors .. but there is so much to do ..

Run!

Lambert

[lambert]

Hi Gents,

I see our old friend mcstls on eBay is selling a Cuba vic with a very clear CHOBILLON signature on the obverse - item 221161410220. Also, the one that was for sale at $1300 - item 390492576759 (see page 2 of this thread, #29 - is now down to $1019.99, but still no takers - you have to admire the seller's persistence.

Bill

$ 1019.99 "great price"

Fake !

[Martin Burr]

I dont know if this ebay seller has been mentioned

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=bilylev&&_trksid=p2047675.l2560&rt=nc&iid=261143148264&sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

Just made me suspicious that the Czech medal is all he appears to sell !!

Edited December 15, 2012 by Martin Burr

[RobW]

I dont know if this ebay seller has been mentioned

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=bilylev&&_trksid=p2047675.l2560&rt=nc&iid=261143148264&sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

Just made me suspicious that the Czech medal is all he appears to sell !!

Hello Martin,

Welcome to the group.

Considering that the vendor resides in the Czech Republic it is not unusual for them to sell just the Czech vic. I have obtained a number of pieces from that vendor and he is reputable. He is also a member of this forum!

Regards,

Rob

[Jean-Michel]

Hello Martin,

Welcome to the group.

Considering that the vendor resides in the Czech Republic it is not unusual for them to sell just the Czech vic. I have obtained a number of pieces from that vendor and he is reputable. He is also a member of this forum!

Regards,

Rob

Hello Martin,

I agree with Rob, because I also bought him of good pieces.

Regards,

Jean-Michel

[Martin Burr]

Thank you RobW and Jean-Michel

Many thanks for your replies and no disrespect intended to the seller. I am new to this medal and have seen a few for sale at rather low prices especialy from the likes of mcstls. It was only that i had seen known fake sellers from ebay named within these forums and the single item selling record rang alarm bells. I still require a Czech medal so would be happy to by from him.

Martin

Always happy to learn something new

[lambert]

Hello Martin

Welcome!

Generally, there are many original pieces in eb_y. But of course, there's the loose fakes, and generally are easy to identify .. But descofie Advertising with pictures of bad and blurry parts "RARE" as a vic Portugal, Cuba, Sian and Brazil, in that order of easiest to hardest in this series.

Regads

Lambert

[lambert]

Thank you RobW and Jean-Michel

Many thanks for your replies and no disrespect intended to the seller. I am new to this medal and have seen a few for sale at rather low prices especialy from the likes of mcstls. It was only that i had seen known fake sellers from ebay named within these forums and the single item selling record rang alarm bells. I still require a Czech medal so would be happy to by from him.

Martin

Always happy to learn something new

mcstls Run !!

There is also other

lambert

Edited December 17, 2012 by lambert

[Martin Burr]

Hello Lambert

Thanks you for your comments and advice. I am currently acquiring some of the Italian Vics and look forward to posting some pictues in due course. This forum is a great read, I only wish i could get a copy of Laslo's book but dont have the $138 being asked for it at Amazon. A good reference book on the subject is well worth having.

Martin