sioni Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Hello everybody I have inherited my grandfather's collection, there is Pour Le merite in good condition. Can you tell me what value it has? I will be grateful. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalnet Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Fake made by Rothe in Vienna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimZ Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Ouch - not a good start!! Care to expand medalnet? Just stating its a fake does not educate anyone. Thanks! Jim :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Hi, I'm not a specialist like Andreas but I can only say that the jeweler who signed JHW was the firm Werner, Friedrichstraße 173 in Berlin. but this firm , and I quote Jeffrey Jacob, "they made Prussian order insignia in the lower classes just before the war". So if it is a fake, why did they use this hallmark ? i will continue my research Christophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Just to learn more about the Pour le Mérite, it is possible to have close up of the eagles please. Christophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimZ Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 If I may also ask...what does an original unattributed PLM sell for? Just out of curiosity really. Just trying to learn something here. Jim :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I'm back, I have seen the Previtera's book and I can't find jeweler with such hallmarck who made PlM. I can't find a perfect cross in this book similar to this one. I guess that Andreas may have right. Christophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militaria0815 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 If I may also ask...what does an original unattributed PLM sell for? Just out of curiosity really. Jim Same price as for an original attributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepenthusiast Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) Hello everybody I have inherited my grandfather's collection, there is Pour Le merite in good condition. Can you tell me what value it has? I will be grateful. Thank you. This cross is not entirely inconsistent with pieces made in the late 1700s and early 1800s, if it were to prove to be made of gold and not gilded silver or bronze. This possibility is especially evoked by the "thin"-looking pie suspension and the somewhat applied or painted-on appearance of the lettering. The initials are also reminiscent of those on a Wagner-type solid silver PlM linked to JH Werner, discussed on another forum, though the latter lacks the small serif at the base of the "J" and the center of the "W" is lower. Edited July 16, 2011 by Zepenthusiast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erickn Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 This cross is not entirely inconsistent with pieces made in the late 1700s and early 1800s, if it were to prove to be made of gold and not gilded silver or bronze. This possibility is especially evoked by the "thin"-looking pie suspension and the somewhat applied or painted-on appearance of the lettering. The initials are also reminiscent of those on a Wagner-type solid silver PlM linked to JH Werner, discussed on another forum, though the latter lacks the small serif at the base of the "J" and the center of the "W" is lower. Hello, I also, would like to view more images of the posted PLM. It is unlike any I have experienced and find it intriguing. The dimensions appear to be similar to the Rothe type, 56-57mm. In the case of the above mentioned Wagner PLM, J.H.Werner was simply a distributor and not the manufacturer of the PLM as discovered by Marshall Bird a few years ago. I believe the initials on the Wagner type and the Kwone Order to be hand engraved so they may vary from piece to piece. IMO, Sioni's PLM appears to represent a stamped J.H.W. Please compare these images. Better images may reveal a difference. Kind regards, Erickn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepenthusiast Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) Hello, Erickn, Your posting these is very welcome, since the mark can be seen head-on and not obliquely as on the Wagner-type PlM, which image you have also been kind enough to supply. (I note my syntax is reversed in my last post--meant to say the unknown PlM lacked the "serif" at the bottom of the "J." My phrasing suggests the other way around.) Your images show the "serif" in question is simply the result of the vertical stroke of the engraver's tool to form the "J" and you must be absolutely right that mark and the Kwone version are engraved and not stamped. The "W"s vary accordingly. A close-up of Sioni's PlM mark would be very helpful for comparison--the "J" perhaps suggests a bit more of a free-form construct than the other letters. Edited July 16, 2011 by Zepenthusiast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erickn Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Hi Sioni, Your cross displays a quality of it's own. Please post some detailed images. Jim, Please accept another image of the J.H.W. hallmark. Kind regards, erickn Edited July 19, 2011 by erickn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioni Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Thank you all , for your attention I still do not understand About My Pour Le Merite Is it real or fake? This item is in Georgia since the Second World War. As far as I know It really is gold,I checked. Here's a detailed photo of any significant notice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioni Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 More fotos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioni Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 close up of the eagle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioni Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Both Sides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioni Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioni Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepenthusiast Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Sioni, This could very well be an 1800s hollow gold PlM, if the bluish-white spot at the vertex of the edge of the lower arm turns out to be a filled vent hole (in a hollow cross). The enamel is a little "ratty" looking, but the fundamentals of how it was made are not inconsistent. J H Werner was very much in business during those years, though it would be helpful to know if any other evidence of them making (or marking) a PlM has ever emerged. The piece may turn out to be very valuable, if nothing else from the standpoint of its historical merit. Curiously, many details of this Pour le Merite have a "Godet" flavor about them. How much does it weigh. (Tried to post a copy of the image in question with an arrow pointing at the possible vent hole, but doing something wrong...) Edited July 23, 2011 by Zepenthusiast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioni Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 Weight is 32,4 gram, pin is 2.2 Gold 18K - 750 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioni Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 Size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioni Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erickn Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Hello Sioni, Thank you for the additional images. Your cross appears to be a well constructed and used artifact but, by who/when? As I stated in an earlier post, I am not familiar with this type so, I am not much of a help in answering your question, Is it good or not? The J.H.W. hallmark I find very interesting and closer examination of post # 13 and 14, I find myself leaning more to the impression that the J.H.W. is hand engraved afterall. Post # 20 leaves me wondering, if perhaps the dot of blue enamel is possibly, a plugged weep hole, therefore the medal being hollow?? Just a couple of thoughts as I also would like to read the thoughts of others. Regards' Erickn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepenthusiast Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 The cross would seem to be too heavy to be an early/1800s hollow gold, unless for some reason this manufacturer was much more prone to freely use the precious metal than recognized hollow gold examples (would seem rather unlikely). What is going on toward the right hand arm tip in the post #20 image? More enamel spots, or a series of breaks in the finish?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepenthusiast Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Incidentally, it is to my knowledge impossible to non-invasively differentiate heavily plated 18K gold from solid. No existing testing modality will allow for the call, unless you drill into the piece. (By the way, meant to thank you some time ago for posting the additional shot of the J H Werner mark on the silver-gilt PlM, Erikn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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