oamotme Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Gentlemen, I recently obtained, in an assorted lot of British family medals - father and son, a Red Cross medal - unfortunately no documentation. Can any of you identify this for me? Is it a scarce piece and what is the period of issue? Many thanks, Owain
Hugh Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Owain, I'm no expert, but that has never prevented me from having opinions. Based on a little bit of knowledge, my speculation is as follows: 1) The medal doesn't appear in Peterson (the basic source), the current MND website nor in the MND ribbon chart I got in Taipei in the '80's. Hence, I think it is not current MND issue. 2) It includes the map of China which appears in several other Chinese medals shown in Peterson, hence definitely Chinese from one side or other of the Strait of Taiwan. I can't read Chinese, but can recognize the name "China" and the number "10" on the top line in the center. I doubt that it's warlord, probably central government. 3) The hook on the back of the ribbon is not typical for most Chinese medals. I've never seen it on Chinese medals before. However, it is typical of Japanese medals. Suggests a wartime occupation issue. 4) If forced at gunpoint, I would date it between mid '20's to 1949 (Mao's takeover). Is there anything unusual about the top of the ribbon? Best, Hugh
oamotme Posted June 21, 2012 Author Posted June 21, 2012 Hugh, I attach an image of the top of the reverse of the ribbon - this, is I believe all original issue - I think the family recipient was involved in medical matters. Kind regards, Owain
Hugh Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Look what I just found on the OMSA website! They identify it as "CHINESE RED CROSS MEMBER BADGE". The similarity of the ribbon suggests to me that your cross is a different class (higher?). Maybe the Grand Panjandrum? As I said, the hook and eye is reminiscent of of Japan. Perhaps an obvious question, but was the recipient Chinese? or ??? Edited June 21, 2012 by Hugh
JapanX Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Hi Gents! This is certainly Chinese red cross merit order (made in silver by the way ) With very unusual obverse central medallion (usual version has plain dark blue background) and reverse I must add ... But undoubtedly this is authentic one. Special commemorative piece? Qing Dynasty introduced red cross awards around 1900 (exact date is not known) and (not surprisingly) copied Japan system of red cross awards. Full Member Medal Special Member Medal (I believe Hugh medal is a special member medal (since it is gold gilted), but we will need the reverse to confirm that ) Order (at least three different variations...) Regards, Nick
hc8604 Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 3) The hook on the back of the ribbon is not typical for most Chinese medals. I've never seen it on Chinese medals before. However, it is typical of Japanese medals. Suggests a wartime occupation issue. Hugh, it is more common than you think. First line is the company name. Second line is "Red Cross of China" Not sure on the third line, probably organization something. The Red Cross of China issued the medals themselves and not any government entities, I believe.... hard to find nonetheless. Today, there are two Red Cross of China...
oamotme Posted June 22, 2012 Author Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Gentlemen, Many thanks for your invaluable input. I presume that this award is now obsolete and if so do you have any suggestion as to the period that the award existed? (I note Hugh suggests 1920's to 1949.) Would it have lapsed with the communist takeover of China? Kind regards & thanks, Owain Edited June 22, 2012 by oamotme
JapanX Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Hi Owain, the earlest examples that I saw came from 1911 (if the memory serve me right I saw once red cross medal issued for englishmen in 1911 (naturally (for English recipients ) with name of recipient stamped on the edge). I think it will be safe to assume that this medals and order were in use at least until 1928. About later time period (1928-1949) I have some doubts since a) at October 1, 1938 (and maybe even earlier) puppet state Manchuko introduced its own red cross awards and these awards had exactly the same ribbons as their Chinese predecessors I wonder if they use the red/yellow ribbon because original Chinese red cross awards by this time were obsolete... b) personally I've never seen any medal groups or photos from 30s/40s with Chinese red cross medals/orders In any case maximum theoretical time estimate is of course 1949, but there is a probability that these medals and orders became obsolete in 1928. Regards, Nick Edited June 22, 2012 by JapanX
Hugh Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 Thanks to those who steered my conjectures toward fact. H
hc8604 Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 I would also add maybe up to the the 1930s. The 1940s was chaos as there was a war with Japan and full blown civil war right after. I don't think these type were awarded on Taiwan. Probably a different type of medal or maybe a certificate. But these are just my hypothesis for it.
oamotme Posted June 22, 2012 Author Posted June 22, 2012 Gentlemen, Many thanks again for your input. This medal, as noted with no documentation, was with a lot which included a Lady's issue Order of St. John's medal named and dated to "Mrs G.M.M. Mackenzie, 23rd February 1904". (See specific post under UK Orders, etc.). The other medals in the Lot included a 1935 Jubilee Medal which appears to relate to the 1st Baron Amulree (formerly Sir William Mackenzie) - other medals (1953 Coronation & 1977 Jubilee) related to his son the 2nd Lord Amulree who was a distinguished physician - the mounted miniatures (KBE, WWII Defence, 1953 Coronation, 1977 Jubilee & Ethiopia Order of Star) did not inclued the Chinese medal. In view of the dating of the Chinese award I am inclined to infer that it does not belong with 2nd Baron Amulree's awards. Regards, Owain
JapanX Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 Gentlemen, Many thanks again for your input. This medal, as noted with no documentation, was with a lot which included a Lady's issue Order of St. John's medal named and dated to "Mrs G.M.M. Mackenzie, 23rd February 1904". (See specific post under UK Orders, etc.). The other medals in the Lot included a 1935 Jubilee Medal which appears to relate to the 1st Baron Amulree (formerly Sir William Mackenzie) - other medals (1953 Coronation & 1977 Jubilee) related to his son the 2nd Lord Amulree who was a distinguished physician - the mounted miniatures (KBE, WWII Defence, 1953 Coronation, 1977 Jubilee & Ethiopia Order of Star) did not inclued the Chinese medal. In view of the dating of the Chinese award I am inclined to infer that it does not belong with 2nd Baron Amulree's awards. Regards, Owain Yep, looks like 1st Baron Amulree is a plausible candidate for this chinese order By tomorrow evening I'll make a separate thread completely devoted to Chinese red cross medals and orders issued in the early days of Republic. With clear pictures of reverses, obverses, different variations, etc... Cheers, Nick
JapanX Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 In elaboration of this thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/54899-red-cross-medals-and-orders-of-chinese-republic/
Hugh Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 To JCWater: There aren't many of us who can read Chinese. Can you please post in English? Thanks, Hugh
drclaw Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Thanks JC, I'll post a Google translation: Wang (?) Department of the National Government, the Red Cross Badge
JapanX Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 I'll post a Google translation Do you really think that Hugh couldn't use Google?! If so, then I believe you missed the point
jcwater Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 To JCWater: There aren't many of us who can read Chinese. Can you please post in English? Thanks, Hugh Give you a problem, I'm sorry. I do not use English because translation software is always wrong convey my meaning. My English is very poor, I can't use English meaning many correct expression.
Hugh Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Give you a problem, I'm sorry. I do not use English because translation software is always wrong convey my meaning. My English is very poor, I can't use English meaning many correct expression. I know from personal experience how frustrating it is not to be able to achieve a good translation, and I'm sorry that you are experiencing this. I'm just sorry to miss understanding your messages. Hugh Edited June 29, 2012 by Hugh
drclaw Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 If JC is happy to keep posting - in whatever language he is most comfortable with - I'll be happy to post a translation using Google and my Primary 1 level Mandarin. It will be a shame to miss out on JC's knowledge and expertise because of language barriers. Also note that JC might not have access to Google Translate. Rock on!
drclaw Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) After YEARS of night school studying Chinese, it was crushing to discover whilst on holiday in Singapore, that I could only comprehend a Primary 1 Mandarin school book. But that's why I enjoy this hobby so much! You pick up words in German, Spanish, Portugese, French, etc, reading ODM catalogues. And my Mandarin has improved from trying to decypher Chinese characters in ancient seal script stamped on 100 year old medal cases. I do envy other folks though - especially our Continental European friends - who are fluent in two, three, four ... languages. Something I'd aspire to achieve one day. Edited June 29, 2012 by drclaw
JapanX Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 It will be a shame to miss out on JC's knowledge and expertise because of language barriers. Don't worry, you won't miss a thing Here comes another opportunity to use your Google translator http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/54899-red-cross-medals-and-orders-of-chinese-republic/page__st__60
drclaw Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Ah, I see from the other thread that "Wang Department" of the National Government is the Wang Jingwei Reorganised Government in Nanjing. That's VERY interesting! The Wang Jingwei regime took pains to present themselves as the legitimate government of China. They issued their own Orders and used the Chinese flag (with the addition of a pendant proclaiming the Anti-Communist nature of the regime). So why not also issue Red Cross medals!
JapanX Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Nope, nothing new and VERY interesting about this hypothesis ... If you`ll look at the very first post http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/54899-red-cross-medals-and-orders-of-chinese-republic/ you`ll see that this was one of the variants The problem is that we don`t have any hard facts for this hypothesis (i.e. single documents, documented groups, statutes, etc). Well, we`ll wait and see...
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