Question on Kaiserabzeichen / Königsabzeichen

[Freiwillige]

Good morning gentlemen!

Please allow me couple of questions regarding Kaiserabzeichen / Königsabzeichen. The point is that actually I'm writing an article on those badges but can't find some information neither in books nor in Internet. I have to present an article this Monday so I have only two days left to complete it)

So here are the questions:

1. Königsabzeichen der Maschinengewehr-Abteilungen for Württemberg machine-gun units. What monogram it had in its centre – that of Wilhelm II of Prussia or that of Wilhelm II of Württemberg? I mean, were those monogram different ones ore absolutely the same in shape?

I understand that the difference should have been in type of crown, but what about cipher?

I can’t find an answer, I came across a statement that Saxon machine-gun units were issued with a Badge bearing “FA” (for Friedrich-August) monogram in the centre, but nothing about Württemberg…

2. General question about Königsabzeichen. Were crowns on badges different for the states of Bayern, Sachsen and Württemberg?

3. Navy personnel – did they receive only Kaiserabzeichen der Feld- und Fußartillerie (awarded for shooting competitions between ships) or Kaiserabzeichen der Infanterie as well? E.g. awards for Matrosenartillerieabteilungen – did they compete in shooting from artillery guns only or from carabines as well?

4. I read somewhere (in a not too reliable sorce though) that commander of the winning infantry company was issued with a special version of a Kaiserabzeichen – unlike other ranks he received a badge made not of gilt brass but of silver (!) with a special engraving. Is it true or the source mixed up Kaiserabzeichen with Kaiserpreis, i.e. bust of the Emperor?

Many thanks in advance, colleagues!

[KIR]

Hi Freiwillige,

.... So here are the questions:

1. Königsabzeichen der Maschinengewehr-Abteilungen for Württemberg machine-gun units. What monogram it had in its centre – that of Wilhelm II of Prussia or that of Wilhelm II of Württemberg? I mean, were those monogram different ones ore absolutely the same in shape?

I understand that the difference should have been in type of crown, but what about cipher?

I can’t find an answer, I came across a statement that Saxon machine-gun units were issued with a Badge bearing “FA” (for Friedrich-August) monogram in the centre, but nothing about Württemberg…

... maybe the Württemberg had the same monogram than the prussains (with Kaiser-crown = for Kaiser Wilhelm II.).

But only six prussain and two saxon MG-units won this prize*, so we don't know exactly which Abzeichen a unit from Württemberg would get!

*... argghh - the link doesn't work! Take the first one from google: militär/formationsgeschichte/deutschland/alte armee/kaiserpreis - Google-Suche

2. General question about Königsabzeichen. Were crowns on badges different for the states of Bayern, Sachsen and Württemberg?

... no - it's the same king-crown for Bayern, Sachsen and Württemberg (maybe there are some manufacturer differences!?).

3. Navy personnel – did they receive only Kaiserabzeichen der Feld- und Fußartillerie (awarded for shooting competitions between ships) or Kaiserabzeichen der Infanterie as well? E.g. awards for Matrosenartillerieabteilungen – did they compete in shooting from artillery guns only or from carabines as well?

... Navy had only the Kaiserabzeichen like the artillery (no carabines). But the Navy had also embroided badges (also a special one for the white Matrosenhemd (in white with blue embroid).

4. I read somewhere (in a not too reliable sorce though) that commander of the winning infantry company was issued with a special version of a Kaiserabzeichen – unlike other ranks he received a badge made not of gilt brass but of silver (!) with a special engraving. Is it true or the source mixed up Kaiserabzeichen with Kaiserpreis, i.e. bust of the Emperor? ...

The Kaiserpreis for the Kompanieführer was a small engraved silver frame (for the desk).

The Kaiserpreis (for the Kompanie) was a bronze bust from the Kaiser with a small engraved plate - see here. And the badge for enlisted men and NCO's.

The Kaiserschiesspreis was a yellow lanyard with crown for for enlisted men & NCO's and for the Kompanieführer also a long silver lanyard with crown.

Best regards,

Jens

Edited August 25, 2012 by KIR

[Freiwillige]

Thanks a lot, Jens, for your help! Will update an article then based on the info you kindly provided.

P.S. My first question was a silly one as far as no Wurttemberg units never won that award)

Coudl you please update me on naval versions of a Kaiserabzecihen or give a reliable link in English where I can read more about it?

[KIR]

...Coudl you please update me on naval versions of a Kaiserabzecihen or give a reliable link in English where I can read more about it?

I don't know a link about the naval-version. I have just an article (in german) with some black & white pictures about!

Best regards,

Jens

[Freiwillige]

I see, Jens. Could you please post here some most importrant info regarding naval version?

[KIR]

I see, Jens. Could you please post here some most importrant info regarding naval version?

I send you a PM! :cheers:

[Freiwillige]

Downloaded already, thank you for your help! :beer:

[Odulf]

In wear...

[Odulf]

In wear; Feldartillerie-Regiment "Von Scharnhorst" (1. Hannoversches) Nr.1

[Freiwillige]

Sailor with Kaiserabzeichen from SMS Kaiser Barbarossa.

[Freiwillige]

Close-up.

SMS Kaiser Barbarossa never won Kaiserabzeichen :unsure:

[KIR]

Close-up.

SMS Kaiser Barbarossa never won Kaiserabzeichen

Hi Freiwillige,

maybe he won his Kaiserabzeichen on an other ship and changed later to the SMS Kaiser Barbarossa !???

Best regards,

Jens

[Freiwillige]

Well, that seems to be the most obvious explanation. By the way were other ranks entitled to carry Kaiserabzeichen in case they were transfered to another unit? As far as even NCOs had to take it off in that case, I assume simple soldiers/sailors were also notable to sport the badge from their previous company/battery/ship... But it's just my suggestion. Maybe someone could clarify the issue?

[KIR]

... By the way were other ranks entitled to carry Kaiserabzeichen in case they were transfered to another unit? As far as even NCOs had to take it off in that case, I assume simple soldiers/sailors were also notable to sport the badge from their previous company/battery/ship... But it's just my suggestion. Maybe someone could clarify the issue?

... yes - that's right, they had to take it off if they changed the unit. But on a studio-portrait the people like to show what they got!?

I have a studio-portrait (Musketier in blue-tunic) with the Kaiserabzeichen 1913 and he ist wearing the iron-cross 1914 ribbon,

the guy received the ircon-cross 2nd class around Febr.-June 1916.

Best regards,

Jens

[Freiwillige]

You are right, Jens, that portrait seems to be an illustration of that case.

[Marcin L]

Freiwillige would you please share your article as soon as it is published?

Regards,

Marcin

[Freiwillige]

Hi, Marcin!

Will do definitely as soon as I translate it into English. I'm a co-author of a book on German shooting badges 1894-1945 that hopefully will be published this November (I keep my fingers crossed)). Actually an article on Kaiserabzeichen is already on my website but it's in Russian only. My website is bilingual but time is needed to make a correct translation - an article turned out to be twelve pages and a half!

Meanwhile if interested you are most welcome to browse website and have a look at other online materials that are already translated (a link is attached below).

[piekenier]

My shooting badge 1910 (Schiessauszeichnung) and marksmans lanyard (Schutzenschnur)

[piekenier]

Reverse

[piekenier]

Backplate with Juncker maker marking

[piekenier]

Schutzenschnur

[piekenier]

Oops backplate again

[piekenier]

Oops backplate again

[Ulsterman]

Ok, I am confused now. my sources say the shooting badges were awarded annually at he end of annual maneuvers to one company or battery for each Corps! the officer commanding each company usually was awarded the REO as a prize.

also, the shooting badge was clearly also awarded to navy Sailors. I have seen them on uniforms and there is one on the website that Freiwillige has a link to above ( great web site by the way, stunning snaps).

[KIR]

... the officer commanding each company usually was awarded the REO as a prize. ...

Hi Ulsterman,

normaly the officer received a silver-frame (Erinnerunszeichen) not the Red-Eagle-Order.

Best regards,

Jens