Yugoslavia St. Sava ... Star

[Igor Ostapenko]

Star of Orger St. Sava ...

Star without marks . silver , 80 mm

1st or 2nd class ?

Yougoslavian post war production ?

[paja]

Definitely domestic postwar production, 2nd class star, I think Griesbach and Knaus, Zagreb.

Regards,

Radmilo

[Igor Ostapenko]

Thank you Radmilo !

May be Sorlini ?

[paja]

You are welcome Igor.

When it comes to the 3rd type of this order it is pretty easy to distinguish Huguenin and Zimmermann from the rest.

And also those poor quality orders are easy to recognize, they are all Sorlini. But G&K and the better quality Sorlini

(on picture I'm uploading in this reply left of the Zimmermann) are confuzing me. I would be very grateful

if someone could point out the main differences between these two variants.

Edited October 18, 2012 by paja

[Igor Ostapenko]

You are welcome Igor.

When it comes to the 3rd type of this order it is pretty easy to distinguish Huguenin and Zimmermann from the rest.

And also those poor quality orders are easy to recognize, they are all Sorlini. But G&K and the better quality Sorlini

(on picture I'm uploading in this reply left of the Zimmermann) are confuzing me. I would be very grateful

if someone could point out the main differences between these two variants.

Thank you !!! :blush:

[paul wood]

Paja, thank you so much for the table of St Sava makers,

Paul

[paja]

You are both very welcome.

The table is from the book "Serbian and Yugoslavian orders and decorations" by Pavel Car and Tomislav Muhić.

Here is the first table from the same book. I hope that the author, member of this forum, would not mind,

both tables are from the site of the publisher: http://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=8857800&Language=en

[paul wood]

Thank you again, this is obviously a book I need to purchase, can you give me the details of who to contact to purchase a copy.

Finally I wonder if you can help me with a query I have concerning the Takovo when was the monogram of Michael III replaced by that of Milan IV?

Many thanks in advance.

Paul

[paja]

Paul, this topic is now almost exactly three years old but I believe that the reply #5 will answer your questions concerning the book.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/40187-serbia-yugoslavia-orders-and-decorations-1858-1941/

[paja]

Now regarding your question about the Takovo Cross. As you probably know order was introduced in 1865 by Mihailo III Obrenovic to celebrate 50th Anniversary of the

Second Serbian Uprising against the Turks. In the beginning there were only Cross, awarded to living participants of the Uprising, and Silver medal which was given to the

families of those who had passed away.

In July 1876 Milan IV Obrenovic confirmed order, and then it had two grades, first, higher, to wear around the neck and the second to wear on chest.

First grade was just larger in size than the second which kept the look of the original 1865 Cross.

In January 1877 there were new changes, order now had three grades, Grand Cross on a sash with a breast star, Commander with a crown worn around the neck

and Knight worn on chest. Third grade looked like 1865 Cross.

After the 1877-78 war against the Turks new reorganization of the order occurred and then it had five grades. The last, fifth grade was the same as the 1865 Cross.

In January 1883 new regulations instituted military division of the order with swords worn on red ribbon.

Also that year was determined that the third and the fifth grade will wear MOIII monogram (to honor the founder of the Cross) and that the rest of the

grades will wear MOIV monogram.

In the end I am really not sure about the answer to your question. According to these regulations it would be logical to think that all orders had MOIV before 1883,

and that after that year only 3rd and 5th grade had MOIII. That would also mean that ALL 1st, 2nd and 4th grade orders wear MOIV monogram which we know is not true.

And the other way around (that before 1883 all grades wore MOIII) also does not correspond to reality! It would be great if someone who knows more about regulations

and this matter in general tells us what's the catch with monograms.

Regards,

Radmilo

Edited October 20, 2012 by paja

[paja]

Igor I have recently discovered that Griesbach and Knaus were producing only 4th and 5th grade of the St. Sava

and that all of them can be recognized by the GK hallmark on the ring of the order.

That means that your star must be Sorlini! My apologies. But I'm still not able to distinguish G&K from Sorlini

by the looks of the Saint. Luckily there are those hallmarks to help us with that question.

Best regards,

Radmilo

Edited October 30, 2012 by paja

[Igor Ostapenko]

Thank you Radmilo !

This star without hallmarks .

Igor

[paja]

You are most welcome Igor. My apologies once again if I mislead you.

So in the end there are 4 producers of 3rd type of St. Sava.

-- 1. Huguenin

-- 2. Sorlini, 3 variants:

- Low quality

- Better quality

- Rare variant with the Saint in the red robes (only 4th and 5th grade with FS hallmark on the ring, http://gmic.co.uk/in...known-producer/)

-- 3. Griesbach and Knaus (only 4th and 5th grade with GK hallmark on the ring)

-- 4. Zimmermann

If there are more producers and/or variants or if I got something wrong please feel free correct me.

Best regards,

Radmilo

Edited October 30, 2012 by paja

[paul wood]

Radmilo,

Thank you so much for your help with the Takovo and the book, most helpful (hopefully it will post on this occasion).

Paul

[paja]

Paul you are welcome, I'm glad if my reply helped you. This question about monograms has been bothering me for quite some time as well.

Maybe the answer can be found in the book, unfortunately I still haven't got a copy of my own.

Regards,

Radmilo

[Igor Ostapenko]

Radmilo,

Thank you again !

What you think about these Items -

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/55676-serbia-the-charity-cross/

and

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/55867-%26-1047%3B%26-1040%3B-%26-1061%3B%26-1056%3B%26-1040%3B%26-1041%3B%26-1056%3B%26-1054%3B%26-1057%3B%26-1058%3B-in-my-collection/

Igor

[paja]

Don't mention it Igor.

I think that you have a great collection of Serbian bravery decorations. You have managed to collect all types of bravery medals from the

Karadjordjevic dynasty era. Maybe you should get one White Eagle with swords just to keep company to Karageorge Star with swords. :)

[Igor Ostapenko]

Thank you Radmilo !

I want White Eagle with swords, but not now ...

( what you think about numbered bravery medal ? )

[Rogi]

I love this award, thank you so much for the info on this topic

Regards,

Igor

[Magnusmilitaria]

Very nice St.Sava order ( sveti sava) made by Sorlini Varazdin. Late production common brest star 2nd class. Not complete, missing neck order (the same like 3rd class).

Grisbach and Knaus GK Zagreb have in fabric shop all kind of st.sava orders from 1st to 5th class. 1st,2nd,3rd class was made in Vienna fabric G.A.S. .

Best Regards

Marko

[paja]

Greetings Marko,

This is the first time I hear that G&K offered all classes of Saint Sava. How did those higher classes made by G.A.S. for G&K look like? Like Saint Sava orders they used to produce during Kingdom of Serbia?

One more thing, didn't the G.A.S. shop went bankrupt in 1922? Someone continued their work after?

[asraka]

Greetings Gentlemen,

I am starting one of my first topics. I hope that you will find some interesting.

Order of St. Sava 1st Class Star, III. emission - the saint is shown in clothes of yellow-green colour holding, from period 1921-1945. Unmarked, production of the well-known German Manufacturer Carl Friedrich Zimmermann. This Pforzheim company manufactured St. Sava Orders in very high quality in the 30s for the Yugoslav Kingdom. In comparison with the Swiss company Huguenin Freres, the saint holds here the book in the left hand. High quality made of gilded silver. Big size: width 81 mm, height 82mm. This brest star can become part of the complete decoration set, if somebody already have the neck order - like 3rd class - of this producer.

Kind regards,

Andrej.

[paja]

A great looking star of a rare producer, thanks for sharing it with us.
Just a few remarks, on Huguenin made orders saint Sava is also depicted with the book in his left hand. Based on the given dimensions of the star I think it's part of the 2nd class set, 1st class star is around 90mm wide.

[Daffy Duck]

I completely agree with Paja. First class star should be 88-90mm

[asraka]

Thank you for additional clarification. I agree with Paja too, I made mistake, in fact, they are the right dimensions of this Grand Cross or first class Star - width 90mm, height 92mm. I apologize.