Metropolitan Police 1887 Jubilee Medals to Metropolitan Police

[Odin Mk 3]

He should have a pension record which will be at The National Archives - probably in MEPO 21/23 (1893-94) but if not it will be in MEPO 21/24 (1894-95).  Unfortunately these files have not been digitised and require a trip to Kew to view them.

Normally the pension record has a very brief career summary which will show all the divisions the man served in.  For men who joined later (Warrant No 51491 onwards) you can find which division they started in from the Attestation Registers but the copies available start after James joined.

 

 

 

[mariner]

From a research point of view, are you likely to ascertain more information about an officer who joined after warrant number 51491 than before?

When does warrant number 51491 relate to?

[Odin Mk 3]

These is no easy answer to your question. There are a number of sources of information that can be obtained - some can be downloaded for free from The National Archives website while others require a visit to Kew to access the information (usually because it hasn't been digitised).  Plus there are the Met Police Orders but finding stuff in these is a needle in a haystack job.

The Attestation Registers that are relevant to these medals are only held from Warrant No 51491 and show when an officer joined, which division he went to and give his signature to show he swore the oaths on joining. 

The Discharge Registers start from March 1889 and show when a man left (and why) and give his class of conduct plus which division he was serving when he left.

The Service Sheets cover from Warrants 74201 to 97500 and give details of the man's previous employment and show briefly his career in the Met (moves and promotions etc). 

There are also pension records which cover men who left with a pension but these are not on line and need a visit to Kew to inspect them.  They do include a summary of his career.

There are also CRSs (Central Record System cards) for officers who were still serving in the 1930s - therefore only a few men who have police medals are included in these but they are the most detailed  as they also show commendations and disciplinary offences - these can be obtained from the Police Historical Section for a small fee (and can be e-mailed to you). 

So the easiest source to access is the Service Sheets but as I said above they only cover a range of officers.  For other men you have to piece it together rather like a jigsaw.

 

 

[mariner]

Odin, a bit more challenging this one :-)

PC A Brown (1887) J Division also entitled to 1897 clasp. By 1902 he's in S Division.

Would it be possible for you to confirm his first name for me and where he was serving in 1897?

[Odin Mk 3]

Was he a PS in 1902?  If so he is Arthur William Brown.  His Warrant Number was 70412 and he joined as a PC in R Div (Greenwich) 13/04/1885 and was pensioned 18/04/1910 as a PS in S Div  (Hampstead).   He was promoted to PS and moved from J Div (Hackney) to S Div some time before 1897 as he was already a PS in S Div at the time of the 1897 Jubilee. 

I can also tell you that he moved to J Div 28/07/1886, having transferred from N Div (Islington), so he served in (at least) R Div, N Div, J Div and then S Div (the last as a  PS).

[mariner]

Many thanks Odin, you're quiet right, he does appear to have been a Sgt certainly by 1902 and according to the census he was living in Barnet in 1901, which I believe was covered by S Division. He appears to have been born on the Old Kent Road in 1865. In 1891 he was living in West Ham, which I believe was covered by K Division. So I suspect it would be anyone's guess as to which station he served in at J Division. However I suspect that he served in J between 1886 and 1891. By 1911 he's living in Hamstead which I believe was as covered by S Division, so all this seems to fit in with the information you've provided. All very interesting stuff so thanks again!!!!!

[Odin Mk 3]

J Div (original called Bethnal Green) was formed in 1886 which is probably when he joined from neighbouring N Division). 

J Division had Police stations in Bethnal Green, Dalston, Hackney, Victoria Park, Wanstead, Leyton, Leytonstone, Barkingside, Woodford, Longhton and Chigwell (Sub Divisional Stations shown underlined)  but yes West Ham had a Sub Divisional Police Station in neighbouring K Div. 

S Div had a Sub Divisional Station at Hampstead and a further police station at West Hampstead. 

Unfortunately without finding paylists (which I'm not sure many even exist now) you can never be sure exactly where a man was serving.  I am aware of a few for 1891 but none cover any of these divisions.

[nottingdale]

On 7 April 2013 at 03:09:37, nottingdale said:

This is my first post so I am starting more or less from square one. Some time ago on the death of my grandmother I inherited my great grandfathers Indian GS Medal with a Burma clasp. After leaving the Army he joined the Met at Bethnal Green in 1888. He did move about a bit & I have seen several station photos & one way to identify him may be to identify his medal ribbons thus I am interested to know if he would have been entitled to any Police Medals in addition to his GS medal and if so what they would look like.

 

 

Joseph Davies

Height 5'-10'

 

B 7-5-1862 St Martin Shropshire.

 

 

Joined at Bethnal Green

R. 16/10/1888-1/10/1913

Met Police Rec

Warrant No 73235.

Left as PC. B-322 from Chelsea Div.

 

Then going to the next step !

I have some of his residential adressess locations (from rate books & the like) so did the Met have a rule about the distance from residence to station?

Any help would be most appreciated

 

Good day all.

 

I am back in the UK & still in pursuit of Joseph Davies (Posts 32-39) but more on that later.

 

1). One sun-in-law was Percy John Burnage. DOB 1891 @ Highgate.

 

He seems to have joined the Met 17/2/1919 and been in F Div & had a collar No 500. (He could even be in 21PG, Post 38. Pic. ) Elect Roll has him at Harrow Rd. P Station in 1924, M 1926. I know he was not a well man (maybe WW1 gas?) but he was also attacked when he apprehended a burglar & 2 accomplices returned & he was badly beaten. Never the same again, I was told. He died 1937 only 46 & my aunty got a pension. Would he have any decorations service or valour?

 

Can any body fill in any other blanks blank’s? (I have no Warrant No for him.)

 

2). His second sun-in-law, George William Bragg, DOB 20/3/1893 joined Blackpool, Lanc’s  Constabulary at some time after WW1. Service. He stayed on in WWII, never seen any police medals would he get something for WWII?

 

I have no idea if he was related to Frank Bragg Met F Div. or if he transferred from the Met?

 

3). Back to Jo Davies, I am told joined the Court Service in Bury Lanc’s

 

but to date I can find nothing on him.

 

 

Last week I went to Q but could not find Jo, in MEPO, but I was told the pension records do not actually contain post service info, so gave up. Is this so?  If not what post info do they contain.

 

 

Anybody know where I would find Court Staff &/or Police service info for Lanc’s?

 

I hope I’m not pushing the envelop to much

 

Martin

 

 

Edited November 6, 2015 by nottingdale

[Dave Wilkinson]

Martin,

Personnel records for police forces in Lancashire (except Greater Manchester and Merseyside) are held at the Lancashire County Record Office at Preston. That said, they are not complete and none exist for several of the former Borough Forces. Insofar as "court" staff is concerned, until quite recently courts were administered locally by Magistrates Courts Committees. They are now administered directly by the Ministry of Justice. Details of the current courts in Lancashire are available on the web. Regarding George BRAGG. He would receive a defence medal if he served in the police during WW2. He would  not receive any police medals unless he was still serving in the early 1950's when the Police Long Service & Good Conduct Medal was introduced nationally. He would get one of these if he had served 22 years and his conduct during that period had been "good". If he served within the Borough of Blackpool he would have been a member of the Borough Police for that town. That said, he may have been a member of the Lancashire Constabulary, serving outside the town but in the Blackpool area.

Dave.   

Edited November 6, 2015 by Dave Wilkinson

[mariner]

On ‎21‎/‎10‎/‎2015‎ ‎11‎:‎13‎:‎30, mariner said:

Morning Gents,

If I maybe so bold as to reactivate this thread and jump on the band wagon.

Can anyone help me out with PC F James G Division, I believe he was only entitled to the 1887 Jubilee medal.

I suspect that his first name might have been Forbes and that he was stationed in Shoreditch in 1881? Can anyone confirm this for me?

Interestingly I've come across another 1887 medal with clasp 1897 this example is to PC J James also of G Division, I wonder whether they were brothers? He also appears to have lived in Holbon at the same time as PC F James? I wonder if he joined up at the same time?

[nottingdale]

On 7 April 2013 at 03:09:37, nottingdale said:

This is my first post so I am starting more or less from square one. Some time ago on the death of my grandmother I inherited my great grandfathers Indian GS Medal with a Burma clasp. After leaving the Army he joined the Met at Bethnal Green in 1888. He did move about a bit & I have seen several station photos & one way to identify him may be to identify his medal ribbons thus I am interested to know if he would have been entitled to any Police Medals in addition to his GS medal and if so what they would look like.

 

 

Joseph Davies

Height 5'-10'

 

B 7-5-1862 St Martin Shropshire.

 

 

Joined at Bethnal Green

R. 16/10/1888-1/10/1913

Met Police Rec

Warrant No 73235.

Left as PC. B-322 from Chelsea Div.

 

Then going to the next step !

I have some of his residential adressess locations (from rate books & the like) so did the Met have a rule about the distance from residence to station?

Any help would be most appreciated

Good day all.

I am back in the UK & still in pursuit of Joseph Davies (Posts 32-39) but more on that later.

1). One sun-in-law was Percy John Burnage. DOB 1891 @ Highgate.

He seems to have joined the Met 17/2/1919 and been in F Div & had a collar No 500. (He could even be in 21PG Post 38 ) Elect Roll has him at Harrow Rd. P Station in 1924, M 1926. I know he was not a well man (maybe WW1 gas?) but he was also attacked when he apprehended a burglar & 2 accomplices returned & he was badly beaten. Never the same again I was told. He died 1937 only 46 & my ant got a pension. Would he have any decorations service or valor?

Can any body fill in any other blanks blank’s?

2). His second sun-in-law, George William Bragg, DOB 20/3/1893 joined Blackpool, Lanc’s  Constabulary at some time after WW1. Service.

I have no idea if he was related to Frank Bragg Met F Div. or if he transferred from the Met?

3). Jo Davies, I am told joined the Court Service in Bury Lanc’s

but to date I can find nothing on him.

 

Last week I went to Q but could not find Jo, in MEPO, but I was told the pension records do not actually contain post service info so gave up. Is this so?  If not what post info do they contain.

 

Anybody know where I would find Court Staff &/or Police service info for Lanc’s?

I hope I’m not pushing the envelop to much

Martin

Thanks  Dave .

 

 

 

George was definitely in the Blackpool Force, he lived in the Police Station with his family. From what I have been told he was an inspector when he eventually retired back to Notting Dale in London.

 

[Odin Mk 3]

Percy Burnage joined 18/12/1911 as a PC in F Division (Paddington) with the Warrant Number 100871and was discharged from X Division (Kilburn) 20/03/1935 as unfit and awarded a pension.  His conduct was marked as exemplary.

There should be a CRS for him (Central Record of Service) which I believe are held by the Police Heritage Centre not The National Archives.  They are more detailed than the service sheets and show commendations and disciplinary offences. 

The page from the discharge register is attached  - I will come back on the point of pension records when I have located a suitable example to add.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Odin Mk 3

[Odin Mk 3]

'Last week I went to Kew but could not find Jo, in MEPO, but I was told the pension records do not actually contain post service info so gave up.'

The Pension files are in the MEPO 21 series.  I haven't used them very often but the ones I have seen all have service information.  A good example is shown below for Ch Insp Joseph Wootton who retired in the 1890s.  It shows all his moves and his promotions.  I have transcribed the information I learnt from it here to make it easier to read:

21/09/1863 PC D Div   30/10/1865 PC X Div   28/09/1867  PS M Div   23/11/1867 PS X Div

28/05/1872 Insp V Div   02/10/1872 Insp 2^nd Div    09/12/1881 Insp 1^st Div  14/08/1886 Ch Insp 1^st Div

26/04/1889 Ch Insp 4^th Div   26/12/1892 Pensioned  (last serving at Sheerness Dockyard)

 

Edited November 9, 2015 by Odin Mk 3
Reformatting information

[mariner]

On ‎08‎/‎11‎/‎2015‎ ‎13‎:‎41‎:‎36, mariner said:

Interestingly I've come across another 1887 medal with clasp 1897 this example is to PC J James also of G Division, I wonder whether they were brothers? He also appears to have lived in Holbon at the same time as PC F James? I wonder if he joined up at the same time?

I'm informed that both these medals were procured together, but for reasons unknown they have been separated and sold as individual lots. I always think it's such a shame when medals are separated in this way. It is believed that they where either brothers or father and son?

[Odin Mk 3]

I think PC J James is John James who joined G Div 5/12/1881 and then transferred to Y DIv (Highgate) some time in before 1897 - he was pensioned (still a PC at Y Div) 30/06/1906. 

He is also entitled to a 1902 Coronation Medal (PC Y Div).

They could be father and son but I couldn't find a match in a quick check of the 1871 and 1881 Censuses

 

[mariner]

Thanks again ODIN. I suspect that they are brothers, assuming that I have the right Fred James born 1840 and the right John James born 1856 on the census search (haven't physically looked on the census, just the search engine). I believe that John was stationed in Holbon in 1891 and by 1901 he had moved to St Pancras which I believe was on E Division? So he may have been stationed at Camden Town in Y Division perhaps?

[Dreme70]

Hi All 

I am hoping Odin can help me with some very sparse information.

i have a 1911 coronation medal (met police) and a 1936 silver jubilee medal to a 

PC W REID  

thats it I am afraid .Any ideas who my man might be ? 

Thank you 

[Odin Mk 3]

Edited February 7, 2016 by Odin Mk 3

[Odin Mk 3]

Sorry I haven't been on the Forum for a while.  The last (blank) post was just clearing something I couldn't delete from my reply box. 

There are several W Reids who earned 1911 Medals - however the only likely man to have earned the 1911 Coronation and 1935 Jubilee Medals AS A MET POLICEMAN is Warrant Number 99163 PC William Reid who joined K Div (Bow) 10/10/1910 and retired as a PC in X Div (Kilburn) 14/10/1935.  So he was still serving in 1935 at the time the Jubilee Medal was awarded. All the other W Reids had left the Met long before that.  Sadly there are no service sheets for him (he joined too late for those in Kew) but there will be a Central Record of Service (available by e-mail from the Met Police Heritage Centre for a small fee).

However I have just checked the 1935 Jubilee Roll and I was surprised that I can't find him - this seems rather strange as most 1911 Medal holders who were still serving in 1935 also got the Jubilee Medal. The roll I have is copied from the alphabetical list (also held on the open shelves at The National Archives at Kew) and it may be this name was missed out when they were transcribed from the hundreds of lists which were submitted by individual departments etc (The Police are in Section 6 with has no less than132 rolls to cover all the various forces).   

Edited February 7, 2016 by Odin Mk 3

[Dreme70]

Thanks Odin that's brilliant

at least now I can give the met heritage people some definite information

i am very grateful for your help

any joy on getting your book reprinted ?

regards

 

[Odin Mk 3]

I've got an order at the printer's now and I await the 1st off for checking as it's a new printer I've had to use.

So hopefully soon 

[The Station Cat]

I recently noted an 1887 Jubilee Medal with 1897 clasp, to a PC C Castill A Division. An unusual surname I'm sure you'll agree and an easy one to search for the various censuses....... and yet I can find no one with that surname at all?

Can anyone confirm for me whether there is any record him having served? 

[Odin Mk 3]

Sorry I can't find a PC C Castill anywhere either - certainly not in my book or in the list of men who were discharged from 1889 to 1919.

I can't even find a man with a name that looks anything like that  

[The Station Cat]

On 3/31/2016 at 23:40, Odin Mk 3 said:

Sorry I can't find a PC C Castill anywhere either - certainly not in my book or in the list of men who were discharged from 1889 to 1919.

I can't even find a man with a name that looks anything like that  

Thank you very much. I couldn`t find anyone of that name on the census either.

 

There's another curious one currently for sale on ebay. An 1897 medal to  PC E Robinson G Division. At first I thought it might have been to  PC Edwin Robinson [w/no 83775]  who later became an Insp. But he doesn't appear to have joined up until 1898, so wouldn't have been entitled to an 1897 medal? Could it be that he was issued it by mistake? 

 

[Odin Mk 3]

No I can't find any suitable candidates for this medal either.  As there are no medal rolls I suspect they may have used the weekly pay lists as the basis for who was entitled to medals.  It took up to a year to issue the 1911 Coronation Medals to the Met due to the time it took to name them all, so if a similar situation existed after the 1897 Jubilee Robinson may have been joining as G Div were getting their 1897 medals.  However I doubt he would have been issued with a medal in error.  

Unfortunately there is no photo of the naming but zooming in on the main image makes me think the medal definitely hasn't been skimmed.  Of course it could be a case of self bestowal by Insp Robinson later in his career - there would have been a few unnamed 1897 medals floating around which were held as spares (I have a 1902 Coronation blank) but they were probably held by the Receiver's Office as custodians of Met Police property.  Without seeing the naming it is impossible to know for sure if it is a 'named up' example.