Chris Boonzaier Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Here is some brainstorming questions from a doc collector for the cross collectors.... Why makers marks? Surely not free advertising, I bet no soldier could ever do anything with the fact his EK had a ring stamp "G". A man going into a tailor would also not have a choice between crosses of different ring stamps... Am I right in thinking that these would have been a control, that the dept responsible would have had a list of official makers with initials and arriving crosses quality could be controlled, the ring stamp identifying from where they came? I really dont see any point if a ring stamp or initial on the back. I dont see a soldier looking at a "G" and saying "Oooohhh... i like them Godet crosses!" There must have been SOME sort of quality control and with hundreds of thousands of crosses from different makers... there must have been some form of identification.... When crosses started coming back with pins that fell off, or loops that seperated, they would have needed a "Fr" or "KO" to see where the crppy crosses were coming from... Now, a FULL "Godet"... THAT seems like advertising, free market, buy from a jeweller advertising.... Then... if the Dept wanted a control number to control the quality.... what is with the unmarked crosses? am I right in thinking most unmarked EK1s are domed crosses, ergo thought of as private purchase? Maybe, most domed have either nothing or 800... so crosses made for private sale did not really bother with initials? Most flat crosses have a makers initials? ergo pointing towards Control and issue? And of course... some really nice private purchase having the firms WHOLE name as advertising... Just some wild thoughts to get the ball rolling.... Maybe the Ordenskanzlei functioned like the LDO and did the controls, using initials, and not LDO numbers, ... IF this is the case, the master list decoding the initials may have been a handwritten list in a single office, lost for ever and ever... And we will go on playing guessing games for ever.... So... I throw those thoughts out there... then duck and run..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 P.S. there are a number of Guess lists doing the rounds, matching Company names to initials.... Does anyone have any to post? Or links? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTTER76 Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 My thoughts are these guys making EKs might have been (in some cases) before, during or after war years, jewellers, bijouteriefabrik, watchmakers, etc. as well. It is fashionable among these kind of dealers to have their brands identified; meaning hallmarks, ring/collar stamps or initials are useful resources for this purpose. Just to say "I made this", for advertising, or whether it was a quality control thing I wouldn't know... but searching the web for a reference to a KJAD stamp I found in a patriotic piece, I've come across these interesting links (and made me think about this thread of course) http://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php/280/letter_F http://www.illusionjewels.com/costumejewelrymarksk.html PS.- KJAD (Kollmar & Jourdan AG, Pforzheim) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Hi, very possible that "Fr" and "G" were used on medals before the war, but which ones would volantarily have used the esoteric "Z" or is it an "N" or half a dozen other mysteries on EK2 rings if not by obligation.... Maybe established firms were able to keep their well known initials, and the others had things given. Maybe the letter "Z" was given to the firm "Peter Wicke" because there were already too many "W Somethings" being used... Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Chris, do you know Dr. Scharffenberg's article "Das Eiserne Kreuz von 1914 – Eine Geldgeschichte"?! It's published in Orden-Militaria-Magazin, Nr. 94, pages 13 to 18 from year 2000. I thought I even sent you the scans months ago, but may be wrong... It answers most of your questions raised here, or at least gives ideas that may be understood as answers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 Hi, have indeed the article, but think that it may be a good discussion theme :-) Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Uhm, but why discussing on know facts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 Uhm, but why discussing on know facts? Hi Sascha, I went back and read the article again, it is a very interesting one, but it answers none of the questions I try to raise above. Nowhere does it discuss the reasons for esoteric letters stamped on EK2 rings, and their purpose. I am dead keen on having the known facts, but still do not have them ;-) My question remains.... what was the purpose of the ring stamps, if not to facilitate quality control. best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) I don't find a abbreviations system using the first letter(s) "esoteric". The dozen different lists with numbers introduced by the Nazis was much more esoteric, in my eyes. And I think we can accept this as a fact: the letters represent the firm names, obviously... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor ...but which ones would volantarily have used the esoteric "Z" or is it an "N" or half a dozen other mysteries on EK2 rings if not by obligation.... Zehn and Neuhaus, who delivered thousands of 2nd class crosses? Maybe established firms were able to keep their well known initials, and the others had things given. Maybe the letter "Z" was given to the firm "Peter Wicke" because there were already too many "W Somethings" being used... The marks of the established firms were not that "well known", or at least not permanently. The important firm J. Godet & Sohn e. g. used a punch mark "JG&S" on their RAO4, but just a "G" on their "probemäßige" EKs. Joh. Wagner & Sohn, main supplier of the GOK, scratched a "W" on their RAO4, but used e.g. different hallmarks "WS" on their EKs 1st class, and possibly even some others on their 2nd classes. Still, the GOK probably knew who was who, as they hadn't to much suppliers, and possibly(!) indeed a master list we don't have... Edited January 26, 2013 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 "Zehn and Neuhaus, who delivered thousands of 2nd class crosses?" Hi Sascha, either you are misreading my initial post, or I was not clear enough in how I formulated. It is great to finally know who Z is now, but that was not my point. My point is, "What/who were the esoteric inintials for"... 1) Although they may be less esoteric after Scharfenberg's article, for years it was theory amongst collectors as to who the makers were... Question... What purpose could they have served at the time? More likely for a system of control than for commercial purposes? IE for official control and nothing else. 2) Would such stamps serve any purpose on commercially sold pieces? Would a buyer have any use for them at all? Doubtfull if Mr Müller buying a cross in München in 1919 would know or care who "z" was. And for Herr Müller, it would have been a REALLY esoteric stamp... not even google to tray and look it up.... 3) If these are control stamps, can we assume any crosses without control stamps are Private purchase? ie. anything without makers initials, but insteead with Nothing, 800, makers crests alaMeybauer etc. etc. (Some state awards DO have silver content stamps however ) THOSE are my core questions, and are not answered by Scharfenbergs article. WHO the stamps belonged to is another topic all together, The Scharfenberg article came out some time ago, it has still not led to a definative list. best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Ah, okay. Then I misread your posts. Fact is facts are barely known to answer your raised questions. I'm having my opinions of which many are fact or observation based. But that doesn't help much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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