Chris Boonzaier Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 We often read that the clasp would have maily been on the bars of really higher ranking officers... here is my thought of the day.... As the clasp was introduced in June 1915.... I am betting it is very probably that really higher ranking officers mostly did NOT get it... here is why.... a young Leutnant of 1870 who got the EK2 , and was a general or Colonel in 1914... would probably have had his 1914 EK1 by June 1915.... so there would be no way to retroactively award him a bar.... here is an example....
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 3, 2013 Author Posted March 3, 2013 He has the EK2 1870, the 25 year oakleaves.... and a 1914 EK1..... ergo a jump from EK2 in 1870 to automatic EK1 in 1914? Anyone have any thoughts?
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 3, 2013 Author Posted March 3, 2013 P.P.S. I am working on a "Thing" about the 1870 clasp... if anyone has any examples to share, photos of wearers, documentation etc,. etc... please drop me a PM. Thanks Chris
saschaw Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 We often read that the clasp would have maily been on the bars of really higher ranking officers... Never read this before.... what you found out today is the generally accepted fact. The higher ranks that received it were mainly those who stayed at home... reactived Oberste that commanded a train station and such.
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 3, 2013 Author Posted March 3, 2013 Hi Sascha... I refer to English language forum talk, as opposed to articles. But I am more on about the technical possibilities, as opposed to how it really happened. According to Nimmergut the period before the introduction is not clear. After the clasp was introduced, the jump 1870 EK2 to 1914EK1 would have been impossible for anyone, whether at the home front or the Real front. Only the fact that "Higher ups" usually got the EK1 early, made them miss out on a spange. My only Spange doc is to a Lagerarbeiter in Berlin ;-)
saschaw Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 I have a picture with EK2 1870 and 1914 in wear, from what I know then only know n by now. It's published in Orden und Ehrenzeichen", vol. 64. If you don't have the article, I'll gladly send it via mail. Indeed it was difficult question what to give them until the clasp was introduced... those who yet had the EK1 when the clasp was instituted, should not receive it anymore, if I remember correctely. Hindenburg and such... Wonder what he did "wrong" to wear them both... it's the Grand Duke of Oldenburg, ca. 1915: http://www.ebay.de/itm/370752768646 In case you need some photo material... SDA user "Metallica" has, from what I know, a good range of photos with the clasp.
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 3, 2013 Author Posted March 3, 2013 Hi, You had mentioned him, I will get on to him. I think it probable that many were indeed old officers back in Germany... but there is of course the possibility of officers who were in Germany before the introduction of the clasp, with a 1870 EK2, who were in Stabs positions, or back in the Wehrbezirk who recieved no 1914 EK, but after the introduction of the clasp joined a staff in France, belgium or wherever, and then got the clasp. of course... it is easy to imagine conversation in the mess. "Well, last week I got an EK1, but your award cam after the introduction of the clasp yeaterday... so you just get a clasp..." Does anyone know when the Grand duke mobilised for the war? He was veery young in 1870... did he get an EK1 then or just an EK2? Maybe it was political ... Wilhelm must have hated him... maybe for that reason he got the EK so late he got the spange instead of an early EK1? Dont forget, he was not a Wilhelm fan, and already in 1916 openly said that under Wilhelm II the war would be lost and the german Monarchy destroyed....
saschaw Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 He was veery young in 1870... did he get an EK1 then or just an EK2? He's wearing the 1870 2nd class and the 1914 1st class.
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 3, 2013 Author Posted March 3, 2013 Then technically possible he got the Spange late 1915 and EK1 afterwards? As i said, maybe being an enemy of Wilhelm II played a role?
saschaw Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 (edited) Then technically possible he got the Spange late 1915 and EK1 afterwards? This is to assume, yes. I was in the believe all German kings and princes ("Fürsten") got the EKs in autumn 1914, so to say as an exchange for the state awards Wilhelm II received as one of the first. The Oldenburg Friedrich-August-Kreuz was instituted in 1914... this is odd! I find it likely Grand Duke Ernst August received the EK1 early in the war, for the FA cross Wilhelm II probably received as early as possible... and later got the clasp as an addition? Odd, but not impossible. Any other ideas ?! As i said, maybe being an enemy of Wilhelm II played a role? I cannot exclude the possibility, but I think the awarding of decorations between German royality was too miuch of a diplomatic gesture for such things... Edited March 3, 2013 by saschaw
Dave Danner Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 Here are some examples from the Bavarian Kriegsranglisten of officers who received the 1870 EK2 and 1914 EK1, with no entry for a Spange. Otto Freiherr Kress v. Kressenstein GO, Kgl. bay. Kriegsminister EK2 26.4.71 EK1 1914 Adolf Ott OTLaD, Kdr. 1.Ldst.Inf.Btl. Mindelheim I.B/14 EK2 31.7.71 EK1 23.12.14 (4.2.15) Luitpold Freiherr von und zu der Tann-Rathsamhausen GdIzD, Kdr. stellv. I.bay.AK EK2 19.1.71 EK1 10.4.15 Otto Fedor v. Gynz-Rekowski GLzD, Kdr. 39.RD EK2 70/71 EK1 1914 There were several other officers with the Spange to the 1870 EK2 and the 1914 EK1, but in all these cases they were not in the field before mid-1915 and did not receive their EKs until then or later. An example is GLzD Rudolf Rösch, who commanded the 10. bay. Inf.-Div. from March 1915 to April 1916.
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 3, 2013 Author Posted March 3, 2013 Hi Dave, That is perfect, that is what i thought. Nimmergut writes "Offen bleibt die Frage, was im Wiederholungsfall bis 1915 verliehen wurde? Ein zweites Kreuz der 2. Klasse oder der 1. Klasse, da die zweite ja schon vorhanden war?" I think this more or less nails it. If you were lucky enough to get an 2nd EK award before June 1916 you got an EK1, and if you were not, you had to get a clasp first. A bit like airlines raising the bar on frequent flyer miles ;-)
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 3, 2013 Author Posted March 3, 2013 A photo from Glenn... i wonde what order Egon von Gayl got them? Did he have an 1870 EK1?
Dave Danner Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 Yes, Egon Freiherr von Gayl had the 1870 EK1. He was commander of a stellv. Armeekorps, so he simply may not have been put in for the 1914 EK2 until after the clasp was created.
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 3, 2013 Author Posted March 3, 2013 of course.... the flip side of the coin... other than being an extra step for an 1870 EK2 vet before getting his 1914 EK1... it also meant a 1870 EK1 recipient was able to get a little goodie as well when he recieved the clasp. Von Eichhorn in the 1st pic is a definate 1870 EK2 and 1914 EK1 guy.
saschaw Posted March 4, 2013 Posted March 4, 2013 I think this more or less nails it. If you were lucky enough to get an 2nd EK award before June 1916 you got an EK1, and if you were not, you had to get a clasp first. More or less. As said, cases of the award of both 1870 and 1914 2nd class crosses are known.
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 4, 2013 Author Posted March 4, 2013 HI, Maybe more out of confusion? I have had 2 sets where the man was awarded the 1914 EK2 twice! Apparently in 1870 the very few 1813 EK2 recipients would right away get a 1870 EK1... as there were more 1870 vets in 1914, than 1813 vets in 1870, the proplem must have first become apparent after the outbreak of the war...
dedehansen Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 I think this more or less nails it. If you were lucky enough to get an 2nd EK award before June 1916 you got an EK1, and if you were not, you had to get a clasp first. A bit like airlines raising the bar on frequent flyer miles ;-) Hello Chris, sorry I think You aren´t right. I have a document group with these "Urkunden" His iron cross 2nd class for 1870 with original signature from Loen.
dedehansen Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 His "award document" to the silberne Spange zum Eisernen Kreuz von 1870/71. You can see that it is already dated on 06.08.1915.
dedehansen Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 And finally his "Abschrift" Iron Cross first class. Regards Andreas
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 7, 2013 Author Posted March 7, 2013 Sorry Andreas, a typo on my part in post 12... I menat "June 1915" But your group confirms what I wa supposing (for me). That is the 3rd doc I have ever seen for a clasp. The Raksch book has one, I have one, now this one... Best Chris
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