Ueberrock

[jonv]

Finding very little information on the wear of an Ueberrock by Prussian general officers,

although it seems to typically show up in studio photos.

Main question: to confirm that there was a dark blue pre-War version, such as in example Nr.1,

and also later a field gray variant.

If that is true, can someone confirm the dates that dark blue was replaced by the field gray,

and if there were any additional upgrades? Any suggested bibliography that might deal with

this issue would also be very appreciated.

thank! Jon V

http://home.comcast.net/~jcviser/page_10.htm

[filfoster]

Most if not all the studio photos of generals in uberrocks were pre-war.

It is my understanding that the uberrock was never produced in field gray. It was a pre-war undress frock coat that was superseded post 1910 by the pale gray Littewka or later, the very similar field gray kleinerrock. (I believe the uberrock co-existed for a time, pre-war. with the Littewka). Photographs and paintings that appear to show a 'field gray' cloth color are likely explained by lighting and artistic license. Paintings, even by the celebrated Hugo Vogel, are notoriously poor references. How many Hindenburg paintings show his Third Foot Guards collar litzen with red underlay, instead of the correct yellow, for example?

Also, general officers uberrocks were usually of a very dark shade akin to a navy blue, almost black color. I have not seen a Bavarian officer's uberrock but suppose these may have been a lighter shade but the OP concerned Prussian uniform.

Edited March 7, 2013 by filfoster

[jonv]

So, some very good points. although sadly this further clouds any understanding I thought I had.

Regards the three double-breasted tunics (Ueberrock, kleiner Rock, and Litewka):

* are there ways to positively distinguish one from the other?

* is there a definitive work that might cover this issue?

and re attached thumbs:

image 1: definitely an Ueberrock because of the length, but is it without a doubt dark blue?

image 2: do the Litzen here serve as positive ID for a kleiner Rock (or can the kleiner Rock

and Litewka even be distinguished from one another)

thanks! - JV

Edited March 8, 2013 by jonv

[Chip]

The officer's Litewka and Kleine Rock both had collar patches (Kragenpatten). There are several ways to tell the two jackets apart, but the most noticeable ones are the basic cloth, light gray vs field gray and the collars, which were of the same light gray wool on the Litewka, but were made from resedagrün Abzeichentuch on the Kleine Rock. The Bavarian models were different in that the Litewka was a medium blue with a somewhat different cut. The Bavarian Kleine Rock had a collar in the same field gray as the rest of the jacket, plus it was supposed to have the Bavarian state colored braid (so-called Aschingerborte) around the collar.

General officer's had red linings and their unique collar insignia.

Chip

[jonv]

thank you Chip.

I'm taking good notes, although in grayscale or sepia photos, the

difference between light gray vs fieldgray is not always so apparent to me

- sure wish I could get ahold of a good reference work.

* can you answer if the first two images below are indeed Litewkas (and that Ludendorff

is actually in a kleiner Rock?)

Edited March 9, 2013 by jonv

[ccj]

I think its...

1)- 1910 Guards Tunic

2)- Kleiner Rock though the pockets appear litewka style but he is wearing either late war or post war. I cant understand why he would wear a tunic missing two buttons!!! Hard for me to look at...

3)- Litewka, IMO

[Chip]

I agree with Charles, except for the middle photo. Normally, generals wore their collar insignia on a backing the same color (Abzeichentuch) as the rest of the collar on a Kleine Rock. Of course, generals could do whatever they wanted with their uniforms, but the insignia in this photo is on a much darker backing than the collar, so I am assuming it is red.

Chip

[filfoster]

There is an oft-published photo of the Kaiser, flanked by Hindenburg and Ludendorf, where the Kaiser is wearing a Kleiner rock with collar tabs that are on a dark, presumably red, patch. And, as you point out, generals, and certainly the Kaiser, wore whatever they wanted.