For Research Medal bar ID possible ?

[dedehansen]

Hello Gentlemen,

I got this medal bar about 15 years ago, and I thought it could

not be traceable. While surfing trough old posts I was astonished,

which knowledge and enthusiam is here around. So now I´ll try my

luck. I belief this medal bar belongs to an Lt or Olt. It contains:

Iron Cross 2nd Class 1914

Baden Zähringer Löwe 2nd Class with swords

Sächsische Herzogtümer silbernes Verdienstkreuz with Swords

[dedehansen]

and here is the back for Rick

Every help and opinions are welcome.

Regards

Andreas

Edited July 21, 2013 by dedehansen

[Guest Rick Research]

That's an extremely peculiar combination. Being a home-made, hook back bar, the Ernestine could have been a Knight 2nd and been swapped out for the astonishingly rarer "EH4X" back when no numbers were available and enamel was "valued" more.

The only Baden unit EH4Xs I find were to

Feldwebelleutnant Ferdinand Gessert MG Komp/ IR 111

and Feldwebelleutnant Otto Leihbecher of IR 169...

but neither apparently got anything from Baden!

The problem with any EH4X without long service awards is that this class went to Warrant Officers-- Feldwebelleutnants, Offizierstellvertreters, Deckoffiziere-- the sort of NCOs who even if dR or dL would have had some sort of long service award, unless they were a peculiar sort of wartime Kriegsdauer Beamter.

It is virtually impossible to be certain--ever--about ANY hook back bar because there is no "structural integrity" to judge whether something has been easily slipped on or off over the last century.

I'd certainly leave this as is and thank your lucky stars you HAVE an EH4X!!!!

[Guest Rick Research]

Dave's just passed through the Baden archives and gotten the Zähringen Rolls scanned better (incredibly stupid format they used to record BZ awards then ) so it is not impossible that there may be a late 1918 match among the several hundred remaining illegible (war Ersatz ink faded) entries. I've been through both Rolls and don't find anyone now.

I'd say somebody "clever" probably took an EH3bX off and "downgraded" to this EH4X. Wadda maroon (as Bugs Bunny always said) in that case. I see that the current Nimmergut "1800-1945" STILL persists in an absolutely moronic undervaluing of the EH4X. Those folks haven't "bothered" picking up 2008's (!!!) Lundström/Krause from Autengruber (or the authors) so... anybody who FINDS one... BUY that EH4X before the Official Bible compilers... notice.

[dedehansen]

Thank´s for trying Rick

Yesterday evening I called up the former owner of the medal bar.

Just in that moment he was on the way to vacation, so the conversation

was quite short. The result was, that he believed to remember that the name

was Müller. The bar came straight out from the family and nothing was changed.

Later the guy should have been a Hauptmann maybe E at the TR Luftwaffe.

I´ll get further when his back from his vacation, and then I´ll post them asap.

Regards

Andreas

[Guest Rick Research]

Nope. None of the only 3 Müllers could match that.

[dedehansen]

Nope. None of the only 3 Müllers could match that.

Thank´s for searching, now I´ve to wait for further informations from the former owner

I'd say somebody "clever" probably took an EH3bX off and "downgraded" to this EH4X. Wadda maroon (as Bugs Bunny always said) in that case. I see that the current Nimmergut "1800-1945" STILL persists in an absolutely moronic undervaluing of the EH4X. Those folks haven't "bothered" picking up 2008's (!!!) Lundström/Krause from Autengruber (or the authors) so... anybody who FINDS one... BUY that EH4X before the Official Bible compilers... notice.

Actually an EH4X has been sold on evilbay for 714,99 €.

Regards

Andreas

[Guest Rick Research]

Obviously SOMEBODY has bought our book!!!!

Time is running out for Lippe-Detmold!

And once Dave's archives haul has been examined from Expedition 2013....

[Claudius]

I'd say somebody "clever" probably took an EH3bX off and "downgraded" to this EH4X.

What is the "b" in "EH3bX"?

[Dave Danner]

Knight 2nd Class

EH1 - Grand Cross

EH2a - Commander's Cross with Star

EH2b - Commander's Cross

EH3a - Knight's Cross 1st Class

EH3b - Knight's Cross 2nd Class

EH4 - Merit Cross associated with the Order

"EH" for "Ernestinischer Hausorden". Some systems use "HSH" for "Herzoglich Sächsischer Hausorden".

[Claudius]

Knight 2nd Class

EH1 - Grand Cross

EH2a - Commander's Cross with Star

EH2b - Commander's Cross

EH3a - Knight's Cross 1st Class

EH3b - Knight's Cross 2nd Class

EH4 - Merit Cross associated with the Order

"EH" for "Ernestinischer Hausorden". Some systems use "HSH" for "Herzoglich Sächsischer Hausorden".

Thank you.

[David M]

Knight 2nd Class

EH1 - Grand Cross

EH2a - Commander's Cross with Star

EH2b - Commander's Cross

EH3a - Knight's Cross 1st Class

EH3b - Knight's Cross 2nd Class

EH4 - Merit Cross associated with the Order

"EH" for "Ernestinischer Hausorden". Some systems use "HSH" for "Herzoglich Sächsischer Hausorden".

Some might even juse SEHO for abbreviation

Thank you.

[Dave Danner]

Some might even juse SEHO for abbreviation

There are quite a few different systems for abbreviations. Here are some examples:

EH - Reichswehr ranklists

HSäH - Deutscher Ordens-Almanach, Handbuch für das deutsche Reich

HSEH - Handbuch über den preussischen Hof und Staat

HSH - Prussian Army and Reichsmarine ranklists

SEH - Bavarian and Saxon ranklists

SEHO - Sachsen-Meiningen Hof und Staatshandbuch

Some of these systems also use different numbers or letters for the different classes, just to make it more confusing.

[David M]

Some of these systems also use different numbers or letters for the different classes, just to make it more confusing.

Isnt that a pain, some use 3 where others use 2b or 2 (without an *) for the Commanderscross 2nd Class. I stumbled across that whilst compiling the biographies of the different CHWO awardees. Its especially troublesome with orders which include an officers rank (between Commanders Cross 2nd Class and Knight). Because than a Knight can be anything from 3, 3b, 4, 5......so first know what the order hierarchy looks like (including WHEN, because they might add a class when your not paying attention