Markus Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share Posted January 11, 2014 Nice additions Radmilo! I could look at these all day! Thanks! There are so many different style St. Sava paintings, even in just looking at Austrian made ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Don't mention it. Same here! Couple of more images of G.A.S. saints from 3rd class orders. http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-02661900-1389532019.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-46269300-1389532265.jpg Edited January 12, 2014 by paja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-52119300-1389532369.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-62115800-1389532396.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-39611600-1389532431.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-47925600-1389532439.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldic40 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Please tell me about this type of the medal. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Greetings Heradlic, That's Bertrand's 4th class order. Very nice example if I may add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Please tell me about this type of the medal. Thank you Paja is correct. Bertrand was a French jewelery company founded in 1863 and they produced many order medals for countries around the world. They are still producing today. The address on the box (nice box! This type box was generally used by Bertrand to deliver the Serbian White Eagle order and a blue colored box was used to deliver the St. Sava order) was in use until 1917 so this dates the medal to being produced from 1903-1917. Bertrand produced the type II St. Sava medal for the Serbian government, with the design changed on the back of the medal eliminating the "M" monogram and replacing it with the year numerals of 1883, the year the order was founded. Type II, St. Sava were produced during the Karageorgevich dynasty from 1903-1918 by only two producers, Bertrand and Scheid. Bertrand produced a large number of St. Sava's for the Serbian government to award WWI participants. Many different painters were used by Bertrand to meet the production demand, so many style paintings for Bertrand St. Sava's could be found. Some are quite nice, like your example, and other are primitive in execution. Markus Edited January 14, 2014 by Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) This is a good opportunity to continue old discussion we had in Rogi's topic: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/57582-purchasing-st-sava-order-tips/ Look at the following two orders, images of the saint look like Bertrand's but there's monogram on the back side... http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-64033000-1389719876.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-63975100-1389719889.jpg Edited January 14, 2014 by paja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Paul was kind enough to share images of this one with us. http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-23362700-1389720201.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-24935400-1389720207.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) They look authentic unlike this from Liverpool medals first showed on the forum by obi007 http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58460-serbia-order-of-st-sava-commander-1st-type-m/ http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-84309300-1389720582.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-53277900-1389720594.jpg http://www.liverpoolmedals.com/Order-of-St.-Sava-Commander-Ist-Type-M.html Edited January 14, 2014 by paja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Markus mentioned different types of this order, generally speaking I type is with monogram, II is with year 1883 on the back side and the saint in red robes, and III is also with 1883 on the back but the saint is in green robes. Based on this classification Sorlini can also be put among producers of the II type. This one's from emedals: http://www.emedals.com/collectors-gallery/europe/serbia/orders/order-of-st-sava/order-of-st-sava-4?vmcchk=1 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-45017600-1389721722.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-99719500-1389721731.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 One more from this topic http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/55927-kingdom-of-serbia-st-sava-unknown-producer/ http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-27317100-1389721817.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-16976200-1389721829.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Hi Radmilo, Interesting that Bertrand had type I Sava' s as well. They must have starting working on them prior to the dynasty shift for sure. The book source I was using didn't have Bertrand samples with the M monogram, but does mention Bertrand started production on Serbian orders just before the Balkan wars. The two samples you posted with Bertrand style paintings, also look very Bertrand style to my eye, especially with the type of crown painting. The vast majority seems to have been type II production, so I think your samples are quite rare! Sorlini producer for type II also seems to be rare. What a wild looking painting on the Sorlini! Edited January 14, 2014 by Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I can not say with absolute certainty that they are Bertrand's orders, but based on the image of the saint both Paul and I think that they are French. None of the books that I have or had states anything similar, as far as I know Bertrand's not on any list of the I type producers... Sorlini orders with saint in red robes are described by Car & Muhić in their book, all of them have FS (Fran Sorlini) and silver hallmarks on the suspension ring. I must admit that I like this variant much more than the rest of them made by the same producer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogi Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) I've been thinking a lot about the I class Bertrand, and something doesn't really fit with me, I was thinking and might it be possible that, the original Saint's photo on a M monogramed piece was worn off or damaged in some way, and the recipients hired Bertrand privately to re-do the portrait?Whenever I see the M monogramed Bertrand they always have a different icon style.Have to agree with Radmilo the red Sorlinis are awesome just after Scheid in my favorite icons style :) Edited January 14, 2014 by Rogi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) When I compare these two I can easily say that they are both definitely Bertrand. Those half circles around the central medallion are like that only on orders made by Bertrand (at least I think so...). And not only that, many other details are the same. Edited January 14, 2014 by paja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) But after closely examining back side of the order with monogram I am no longer that sure about it's authenticity... On that Huguenin from LM the whole central medallion on the back is replaced, here the medallion is not replaced but it could be that the monogram was added later. On the other hand look how many "holes" on the back medallion are there on II type Bertrand, I believe that it is not possible that all of them are covered with monogram... Edited January 14, 2014 by paja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 But after closely examining back side of the order with monogram I am no longer that sure about it's authenticity... On that Huguenin from LM the whole central medallion on the back is replaced, here the medallion is not replaced but it could be that the monogram was added later. On the other hand look how many "holes" on the back medallion are there on II type Bertrand, I believe that it is not possible that all of them are covered with monogram...2.JPG Yes the photo of the backside clearly shows an M monogram that is too small for the space. All the other type M monograms filled that white space on the enamel. Maybe there have been parts replaced by a collector or jeweler on these type I Bertrand's. Very nice thread Gents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogi Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Yes the photo of the backside clearly shows an M monogram that is too small for the space. All the other type M monograms filled that white space on the enamel. Maybe there have been parts replaced by a collector or jeweler on these type I Bertrand's.Very nice thread Gents!Aye true, but it could as well be a Replacement M on a 1883 Bertrand too. I mean if we check our Yugoslavian Orders and Decorations book, you can clearly see in one of the photos and mentioned there a 1882 replacement from possibly an Order of the White Eagle back piece on a St. Sava Best case scenario on the one Radmilo posted would be something like, vet has old M style Sava, it falls/breaks whatever :S accidents happen. Vet. takes the Sava to a Jeweler who replaces the M monogram on a later Bertrand style piece. Then again this is only speculation but if I was a Vet, that's probably what I'd do if I had my older style piece hit the floor and shatter Then again, do we know how the 1883 is attached? If it is in whole or in parts attached to the back, if its down completely fixed, then we can eliminate a replacement.If it is only secured in 2-3 places, then that can explain the crack where the 3 would have been and how it was possible to remove the piece from the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Markus, We can only thank you for starting it! So we probably solved the mystery behind that piece. About the other one, these two images next to it made me think of Bertrand, there are some similarities (rest of the pictures are from Verlag Militaria website). Piece just like that can be found in Car&Muhić under unknown producers, according to them it could be that the order was made in some German workshop. Edited January 14, 2014 by paja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogi Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) There were some workshops that made private examples of Orders, I remember reading somewhere for our Savas and Takovos. Could very easily be one of these producers you are suggesting Radmilo :) Edited January 14, 2014 by Rogi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paja Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Rogi, I was in a middle of writing my reply when you posted yours, I must say that I agree with you, I believe that someone replaced year with monogram. The only problem with that theory are those holes I mentioned, look how many of them are on the back side. But I guess it can't be that hard to fill them, the question is how much would that be visible... Also one more thing, it could be that this replacement was not done by some vet but by a person who knows that pieces with monogram are couple of times more expensive than those with 1883 on the back... Edited January 14, 2014 by paja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi007 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 My new arrival K .F St. Sava in Blue box top quality ???????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Fantastic images, thank you so much for sharing, nice to see a pristine piece like that. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogi Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Perfect addition Obi, very very nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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