Serbia Order of Saint Sava 4?, 5?, golden saint, why golden?

[Alpha Draconis]

Hello Gentleman

I recently aquired this unusual Order of St. Sava. I had a few dozen Savas in my possession, but never one like this! I know most of manufacturers of St. Sava, but this is not one of common ones! I have been told that this is a Belgian manufacturer?

To get back to the topic; why golden saint? Are all of the orders from this unknown? manufacturer painted in gold or this is a custom made order?

Anxious to hear the experts!

Joseph

[Rogi]

Could be custom made, but then again, why Golden Saint.

I think the piece might have been damaged and the icon was re-done by a inexperienced Jeweler (or painter), with a less than favorable result (at least to me ). It really looks odd, and I doubt that a private experienced Jeweler would have

made this piece in such....odd quality.

It may be the photos of the piece, but it doesn't look as good an icon as others, and recipients and the regular firms that manufactured the St. Sava had standards to look up to in the presentation of the Icon. I don't believe from standards in Iconography and artisanship that a professional did the icon image.

If you can zoom in on that hallmark we'd be able to tell what it was, or what it is :)

Edited January 20, 2014 by Rogi

[paul wood]

It certainly has similarities to the unknown Belgian manufacturer listed by Car, however the illustration does not show the saint looking particularly golden, possibly it is a touched up version of that piece.

Paul

[Alpha Draconis]

Hallo Rogi and Paul

Thanks for fast responce! I have ben monitoring internet and military shows for 10 years, and have never seen this odd saint, maybe on french ebay 3-4 years ago, but maybe that's the same order... don't know!

Rogi, I don't have better zoom for the halmark, but there are no letters or numbers in it, just a hole in the metal, allmost squared.

Paul, saint is not golden, just the lines, and it's maybe just golden colour, didn't test it, it could break, would be shame...

But in the flesh it's a nice piece!

I'm wandering if this is really a replacement jewlers work, or a custom made order, so if anyone knows a little more, please, share the knowledge!!Anyways it is an interesting piece

Thanks Gentleman!

[Rogi]

Hallo Rogi and Paul

Thanks for fast responce! I have ben monitoring internet and military shows for 10 years, and have never seen this odd saint, maybe on french ebay 3-4 years ago, but maybe that's the same order... don't know!

Rogi, I don't have better zoom for the halmark, but there are no letters or numbers in it, just a hole in the metal, allmost squared.

Paul, saint is not golden, just the lines, and it's maybe just golden colour, didn't test it, it could break, would be shame...

But in the flesh it's a nice piece!

I'm wandering if this is really a replacement jewlers work, or a custom made order, so if anyone knows a little more, please, share the knowledge!!Anyways it is an interesting piece

Thanks Gentleman!

I think it is as Paul and I suggested, it is a private manufacturer (since I've only seen 2 others of these on the market, one 3rd and one 4th) As Paul suggested it is most likely the Brussels Jewler that Mr. Carr has put in his Orders and Medals book

It is a great pick up and addition to your collection

I think from your explanation of the look of the Saint it is this Brussels one, the golden lines may have been too flashy when exposed to the Camera's flash if they are about the same look as the Golden gilt on the St. Sava itself, then there should be no issues

I think because of the small quantity of these out there, it is a custom piece from this Brussels Shop :)

Edited January 20, 2014 by Rogi

[paja]

Greetings to all,

I completely agree with Paul and Rogi, it looks just like piece made by "Joseph Piret Brussels" shown under Unknown produces in the book by Car&Muhić. Image of the saint is more than just similar, crown is of the same type, and the four two-headed eagles are looking pretty much the same to me.

By the way, I've seen this piece couple of months ago on ebay. The seller used exactly the same images and the order was ridiculously overpriced at first, if I remember well in the end it got sold for 10 times less than the original price.

Edited January 21, 2014 by paja

[Alpha Draconis]

Hello Paja

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, I have never heard of Joseph Piret Brussels, but then, I'm not a great St Sava collector!

Yes this is the order from ebay, and I used sellers pictures(to lazy to take my own ). I bought it for 570$, but the initial price was over 3000$! The seller taught it is an unique order, but Rogi saw others like this one! Is this(570$) a good price for this order or..... ?

[paja]

Don't mention it, Paul and Rogi wrote about this producer so all the credit goes to them.

Apart from the one in the book that we were talking about this is the only one I ever saw, so they really are very rare. Unfortunately that also means that it's hard to say what would be some real price for it.

I'm not completely sure but I think that the seller's first price was 5K!

Anyway my congrats on this piece

PS If it's not too much to ask could you please make a couple of better pictures and post them on the forum

[paul wood]

Joseph,

I think at the price you paid you should have no problem, I suspect a few members would be happy to pay that for it.

Paul

[Rogi]

Although a little high, it is a good price, I'd of been happy if I owned it even at this amount

[Alpha Draconis]

Thanks Gentleman

This is a nice forum indeed, I'm sorry i didn't joined before, when I had much more orders and questions of course!

Paja, I'll try to take pictures, but with my phone pictures are not so good! I need a sunny day, but it's cloudy in Croatia at the moment.

Gentleman, since I'm not a St. Sava collector(not that I don't like the order, these are one of the best made and best looking orders in the world), and since I'm not a seller(don't like bothering with pictures and everythng on ebay) I would like to offer this nice rare order to one of you, to real st Sava collector!

What say you?

[Rogi]

Um, I'd like to add it to my collection I'll pm you

If you're ok with it couple questions first, then I'll decide :)

Edited January 21, 2014 by Rogi

[paja]

So you are having the same bad weather as us here. Actually I think that pictures come up better on a cloudy day than on a sunny one

I would be very grateful if you could post couple of them, but if it is too much trouble I don't want to bother you.

Sounds like you got Rogi interested

[Rogi]

More pictures would be great remember to use Macro setting and focus the camera/ phone (Macro is the flower)

Edited January 21, 2014 by Rogi

[paja]

When you compare this order with the one in the book you can notice that couple of details are different.

If you disregard the image of the saint the order itself looks more like one also rare variant which Obi was kind enough to show us in this topic:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58993-serbia-order-of-st-sava-v-class-1883-huguenin-freres/

Edited January 21, 2014 by paja

[paja]

[Rogi]

When taking photos, would you please be able to take a photo of the Cross (the upper portion near the crown connection ring) as well on your St. Sava, Thank you Joseph :)

Edited January 21, 2014 by Rogi

[Alpha Draconis]

Hello Rogi, Paul, Paja and other gentleman who monitor this thread!

Thanks Gents for geting help to identify this nice order! Paja, you made a superb comparation of this Belgian manufacturer!

Nowwhen I saw the stamp on Obis order, which is the same as on mine order, now I'm sure this is a genuine order, and a rarer variant of

it!! I have found another picture of this manufacturer on the net! It has the same letters font as mine, wide crown, small eagles, and numbers a fastened to the rim, like on type 1 orders!!

This is the thrill of collecting, to dig out the truth!!

I made a misjudgement with Russian republic badge(Paul knows), but with this one I had a bit of luck!!

Guys, I tried to make pictures, but my phone is not good enough, even with macro on(Rogi, you made me laugh with flower sign)!

Now to answer Rogi querry, yes I have paypal, yes I can send airmail with tracking option 8$(to Canada, ata 2-4 weeks) or super fast mail with tracking option 40$(ata 1 week)

As a collector, for me money is not the most important thing in the world! I meen, everybody needs it but you have to be above that!

So Rogi, as a first colegue who answred my topic, you have a chance, and head start to win this trophy!

At start I will offer you to get this order for the price I got it(570$)!!! + a pay pal fee + shipping of your choice +10$ for me, hehehe

But as a fair player, I'll give the other gentleman offer price of 1000$, so I can make my wife a happy women with a 400$ gift:)

I'm a good husband, aint I?

Offer stands for two days, and when that time expires with no offers, Rogi is the lucky bastard;)

If there are 1000$ offer, again Rogi has the advantage to purchase it for 1000$!

No personal messages, lets make this a fair sport!!

Good luck Gents, and Rogi I cheer for you mate!!

Uhh, I didn't type this much from 1986!!!

Joseph out!

[Alpha Draconis]

Here is the order from the same workshop as Obi and mine order! Nice!!

[paja]

Thanks for that image, not only a rare variant but also with a rosette on the ribbon, something you don't see very often on Serbian decorations.

[Rogi]

I'll have to pass this time, although it is a very interesting piece, I'd definatley want more photos (or a chance for me to look and touch it, and examine it by my microscope)

I think there are only 3 possibilities to the piece,

1. All Original

2. Repaired Original piece/ Or Something else was used as a base for this one

3. Fake (always possible with anything I guess)

In my opinion with the information that we have on hand, and lack of further photos I'd say that it was repaired sometime during its life or possibly that another producer's piece was used as a base (such as Obi's unkown producer and the similarities to Hugenin) when we compare it in detail with the example we have.

If we had more information on this perticuler producer (even a 4th or 5th) example to compare and better photos that show the quality it would be much easier for me to make a agreement.

Other than me touching and inspecting the piece with my microscope, there is really no way to complete a sale, in this case, unless in the future new and better quality pictures arrive.

Although you don't collect St. Savas I would encourage you to start doing it and research this piece further, I think it is a very nice addition to a St. Sava collection (or start to the collection) and would definatley recommend buying a better camera or borrowing one and taking some photos

If you can take a photo of that hallmark and it turns out to be Piret's then it is a great sign , each manufacturer has their own hallmark and although there are similar positions on some St. Savas you need the proper producer for a specific piece

Although it shows damage it gives it a certain "patina" to some collectors.

As for other countries, do you collect Croatia?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Rogi

[Alpha Draconis]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-15792-0-39143900-1390418372.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-15792-0-12376100-1390418382.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-15792-0-55674700-1390418397.jpg

Hello Rogi and Paja

With the evidence that Paja presented with Obi pictures I see that this is a Pires made order! Everything is the same, wide crown, narrow eagles, font of the letters, number on the back, all except the saint! So only question, in my opinion, is it the original painted saint, or a remake? My opinion is that this is original from manufacturer, becouse Rogi saw more of these golden painted saint orders, and I have seen one more. And the white enamels where Sava is painted is identicly white as on the back, where the number is, so it was not a replacement! Rogi, you said that there are similarities to Huguenin, but there is none, here are the pictures with two Huguenins!!! They couldnt be more different!!

There is a mark(stamp) on Obi picture, which is Pires mark, and the identical mark is on my order!

So it's not a copy!

I would like, for you Gentleman, that you could see it in person, it has a lovely patina!!

I don't have a good camera, cause I'm not a seller. My phone is more than enougf for my hobby.

Yes Rogi, I collected NDH orders, but now I only search for tricky items like this one!!

Enjoy the pictures, Gents!

Rogi, you'll change your mind when you se how different this order is from any other Sava you have!!

[paja]

Hello again,

Actually the order that Obi showed us is not Piret but according to Car&Muhić most probably early Huguenin. Icon on your piece is on the other hand just like on Piret's from the same source.

So your order looks like combination of the lower class early Huguenin and the Piret's icon from the book.

Piece from the book is different in many details from yours but on the other hand it's 3rd class and yours is 5th. So that's the trouble here, I don't have images of the same variant and the same class to compare it with...

By the way thanks for new images, did you make them? Are all of those pieces from your collection? 3rd class looks like Sorlini, am I right?

Edited January 24, 2014 by paja

[Rogi]

As Radmilo and I mentioned,

Obi's is most likley some type of Huguenin order either from the workshop itself or based out of the base piece.

Your Sava has elements of Obi's and Piret's styles, since we only have a 3rd class to compare with we can't say for certain it is or isn't how a 4th or 5th is supposed to be, even when comparing the Icons to a Pirets, there is a difference in color and it isn't exact to the 3rd class's lines or colors.

and lastly,

If your hallmark and Obi's is the same then you have a potential problem, like I stated before, each producer's hallmark is different. Please re-read the post

P.S. Each hallmark has a different letter, symbol, number etc depending on the maker

Edited January 22, 2014 by Rogi

[Alpha Draconis]

Hello Gents

I taught that Paja displayed Obi picture as a Piret version! Now I see it is a early Huguenin! So, if the early Huguenin has that halmark which is identical to mine, that makes my order early Huguenin? Comon guys, lets find this lad a birthplace!!!

Do you have any Piret picture? I havent seen any to compare it with mine!

The picture I found on the net and posted it is probably early Huguenin as well! I tought it was Piret, cause I tought Obi version is Piret!

The third class order is a Sorlini Varazdin, pictures are not mine, I have asked a former owner to send me these pictures for comparision, I don't have St. Sava at the moment...