Prussia Ludendorff's shoulder boards

[filfoster]

In the medals and decorations forum, I have asked what medals Ludendorff wore in many photos (see the thumbnail attached).

As First Quartermaster General, with the substantive rank of General of Infantry, what color underlay is he wearing to his shoulder boards in thie thumbnail? The most logical color would be red, for a general, but even accounting for the perversity of the photo process at that time, (Hindenburg's bright yellow underlay for collar tabs and shoulder boards always looks dark), the color looks too light to be red. Can any one solve this mystery? Virtually no online reference or image I have found shows the color clearly.

This is frustrating since he was among the best known figures of the Great War.

[The Prussian]

Hello!

It might be the bright red, the so called crimson (red)

It was worn by the entire general staff. Here´s an example of a Hauptmann i.G.

[The Prussian]

Hello!

It might be the bright red, the so called crimson (red)

It was worn by the entire general staff. Here´s an example of a Hauptmann i.G.

[The Prussian]

Hello!

It might be the bright red, the so called crimson (red)

It was worn by the entire general staff. Here´s an example of a Hauptmann i.G.

[filfoster]

Andy: Thanks for your reply. I had thought of that but would need another precedent. For example, Alfred von Schlieffen wore Great General Staff uniform (See thumbnail) when he was the Chief of the Great General Staff.

Does anyone have a verification that Schlieffen's facing colors worn on that uniform were crimson/carmine red, rather than general's poinceau or 'poppy' red?

Edited April 30, 2014 by filfoster

[Glenn J]

Perhaps the white of Füsilier-Regiment Nr. 39 of which he was "Chef".

Regards

Glenn

[filfoster]

Perhaps the white of Füsilier-Regiment Nr. 39 of which he was "Chef".

Regards

Glenn

Glenn: Thanks for this. That would be my guess, given the very light color of the photographs. I had searched to see if he was an honorary 'chef' or 'ala suite' to any regiments and had not found this. Great info and until someone has more conclusive documentation or persuasive arguement, that is what I will go on. P

[The Prussian]

Hello!

The generals wore different uniforms. By the way, each general had the unifirm of the generals. A different one was the uniform of the general staff. The also could wear the uniforms of the units, from which they were chiefs or à la suite. The war minister and the chief of the general staff also could wear the uniform of the officers, who were under their command!

The chiefs of regiments did change. I don´t have a Rangliste of 1905, but of 1904.

In 1904 the chef of the Füs.Rgt.39 was the archeduke of Austria Rainer and Schlieffen was à la suite of the guard-uhlans.

The "Verlag Militaria" did publich a very good book only about generals!

You can also order it in english in the states:

http://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=1596672&Language=de

[The Prussian]

By the way: In that book is your photo of Graf Schlieffen shown. It says, that, on that photo, he wears the uniform of the general staff with epaulettes.

[filfoster]

This source http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/l2/erich_ludendorff.html

confirms Ludendorff as 'chef' of the 39th Fusiliers as of 26/10/1918. That would most easily explain the very white appearance of the shoulder board underlay on the post war photographs of him, as in the thumbnail attached to my original post.

Edited April 30, 2014 by filfoster

[The Prussian]

L. was not the "Chef" of the regiment, he was the commander. That´s a difference. Chef means, he "owns" the regiment, but the "leader" was the Kommandeur.

But it could be possible, that he wears the regiment´s uniform, of course!

[filfoster]

Andy, thanks for your suggestion but the article claims that he both commanded the 39th Fusiliers and was later made 'chef'.

This article http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/l2/erich_ludendorff.html claims that Ludendorff was the commander of the 39th Fusilier Regiment before WW I, perhaps 1913, and later, on the date of his resignation, 26 October, 1918, he was made the 'chef' of the regiment. The post-war picture seems to show white underlay to the shoulder boards.

It seems to clear this up we need answers to two questions:

1. Does anyone have better documentation of his being named the 'chef' of the regiment on 16 October 1918?

This source http://books.google.com/books?id=GbNkAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT85&lpg=PT85&dq=Erich+Ludendorff+39th+Fusilier+Regt.&source=bl&ots=06j7dmwC1Y&sig=ycKi6oiotM1g1Nuw0trd02IlPOc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d1hhU8bMGYuUyATYv4D4CA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Erich%20Ludendorff%2039th%20Fusilier%20Regt.&f=false

says he was appointed 'chef' of the 39th on 1 November 1917.

This article also says Ludendorff was assigned command of the 39th 27 January 1913. (scroll up one page)

2. Was white the correct shoulder board underlay color for this regiment at that time?

Edited April 30, 2014 by filfoster

[Glenn J]

Does anyone have better documentation of his being named the 'chef' of the regiment on 16 October 1918?

It was 1 November 1917 as seen here in the Militär-Wochenblatt edition number 54 of 1917.

Regards

Glenn

[Glenn J]

Ludendorff was appointed regimental commander of FR 39 on 27 January 1913 as gazetted here. He was replaced by Oberst Walter v. Schonberg on 22 April 1914. White underlay corresponds with the 1915 dress regulations.

Regards

Glenn

[filfoster]

Andy and Glenn, thank you for helping to clear this up for me. It appears the post war photos show him with the white underlay on his shoulder boards commemorating his appointment as 'chef' of the 39th Fusilier regiment.

Now, if only someone could identify all the medals he's wearing in that photo, I could reproduce a great display.