joe campbell Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 also got this one at the SOS.this is a 1914 EK 1 with the only marking being800 on the reverse. it has some lacqeurish stuffon the reverse. while i like the delicacy of the obverse, the hinge and pin are quite substantial.enjoy!joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Hi Joe,you've got an unmarked but "silverstamped" example of the "square"familiy here! I haven't seen much of them the last years......that's one of the variations I'm lookink for! Beautyfull cross-well done,Joe!Micha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted March 4, 2006 Author Share Posted March 4, 2006 micha-i thought it looked familiar!!you are correct in that it isessentially the same cross.why is it that i can't see thesecomparisons like you and bill do??? thanks, micha!joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Joe,you must listen to the crosses-they speak to us Micha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Funny,tonight I bought exactely this variation-but with screwback! Micha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byf Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Nice looking Kreuz, good job.byf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buellmeister Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Joe, very nice indeed... Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 (edited) Hi Joe,I'd like to ask for a really good image of the core of your example - especially the crown and the date. From what I can see so far, I disagree that this is an unmarked "square" example. Reasoning;The "square" maker and CD 800 crosses are VERY similar but there are some slight variations in their cores. The CD 800 crowns are slightly different and have poorer details than the "square"examples. On the dates, the 1 between the 9 and the 4 almost touches the 9 whereas on the "square" example there is quite considerable separation - from your images the top of the 1 is definitely almost touching the 9. Also, I'm willing to bet that your example has flat-based "flatwire" catch rather than the typical "square" roundwire catch - the flat-based "flatwire" catch is classic "CD 800". The hinges on both types are very close but you'll find the pins on the "square" examples are slightly thinner than on this example.Imo, your example is a vaulted but only 800 stamped CD 800. I have his brother, but the core is not as nice.Regardless - it's a very nice cross!RegardsMike Edited March 5, 2006 by Mike K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted March 5, 2006 Author Share Posted March 5, 2006 mike-your interest is appreciated!here are the pix you asked for,and i hope they are helpful.joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted March 5, 2006 Author Share Posted March 5, 2006 and here is a shot of the clasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Hi Joe,The additional images imo confirm what I indicated above - the core and catch of your example matches "CD 800".RegardsMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Mike,good points-The "flat" catch speaks for a CD 800,also the poorer quality of the core.But Joe's example here has got definitely the "square" pin.And there are no voulted CD 800 known.So when we remember thad Heyden said all the voulted EKs where private issued I think we've got simply two variations of the same manufacturer.Even if the cores are not identical to the last detail,they are very,very similar.In my eyes it's the same setup!So....have we got a vaulted CD 800 without mm? A square with the right pin but the wrong core? All in all a very interestig EK(and I whish I woud have it in my collection)!RegardsMicha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 (edited) Mike,..But Joe's example here has got definitely the "square" pin. No, it does not, as I stated above. Looks SIMILAR, but it's different - width/thickness of my "square" pin = 2.17/1.46 mm, width/thickness of Joe's type in my collection = 2.60/1.70 mmAnd there are no voulted CD 800 known. So when we remember thad Heyden said all the voulted EKs where private issued I think we've got simply two variations of the same manufacturer.I agree, I am not aware of any marked and vaulted CD 800 examples. Whether vaulted examples are private purchase or not is probably not critical to the discussion. More interesting to point out that most of the larger manufacturers produced both flat and vaulted examples. I agree that we've got two variations from the same manufacturer - imo whoever produced CD 800 examples!Even if the cores are not identical to the last detail,they are very,very similar.In my eyes it's the same setup!The cores are not identical - period. It does not matter how similar they are, they came from DIFFERENT DIES. Therefore they can not be the same setup. Imo a very important point, one on which I personally have zero tolerance.Further, after examing the frames of the two types (square and "Joe's" type), there are very few differences - there are some, but not many. The most significant differences in the beading lies at the outer right hand point of the 12 o'clock arm and on the inner point between the 9 & 12 o'clock arms. The frames on Joe's type and the CD 800 are imo a match though.Now having said all that, there is one arguement that I will accept - as quite a few of the main manufacturers seem to have had 2 cores and sometimes two frames (eg KO, Godet, Meybauer, WS, Fr, FR, etc) it's possible that all 3 examples under discussion here (Joe's type, "square" type and CD 800) were made by the same manufacturer.RegardsMike Edited March 6, 2006 by Mike K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Just two more pics....a comparison between a CD 800 and a"square"My problem is-I don't own the EK type shown by Joe,and I don't have a "square" marked screwback-just the "800"marked variation.But be shure I will take the next few "squares" and all the others.......RegardsMicha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 one more.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 my goodness they seem close!!!thanks for the great pictures, micha!joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Close-up scans of the crowns of my 3 examples showing that the "square" marked example is different to the 800 and CD 800 examples (which are the same). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Same with the dates. My pin-back "square" marked example has a different core to the 800 (Joe's type) and CD 800 examples.RegardsMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Mike,from your pics I agree totally with you.But your "Sqare" is different to mine So we have minimum 2 different cores?Please have a look at the pics I had posted a while ago-I cant see any major differents that would indicate they where made from different dies.But this is really interesting...Micha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike K Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Hi Micha,Yes, it looks like two dies (at least for the core) for the square/quadrant examples, but still a relationship between the square and CD 800 (and "Joe's") examples based on your pics. So it seems there are either two manufacturers involved and some die sharing or one manufacturer with at least two set of dies for cores and frames - as mentioned above. Both possibilities have precedents so I guess it's another confusing case of EK1 "inbreeding", at least until new information comes to light.RegardsMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 I have a square marked EKI and 2 CD800 EKIIs, the crowns are totally different in size and shape. The year 1914 being different sizes, but apart from that, to me, they look the same on the CD800 and square (the "1" in 14 touching the "9").Or am I just confused?Nice cross by the way Joe!Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 (edited) HelloJoe, a very nice original cross. Here is my vaulted EK1. It is marked '800' on the pin and carries no other markings. The catch is a roundwire type. The crown looks the same as that shown by Mike K as being the square type, whilst the date looks like the '800' date again shown by Mike K. The pin width measures 2.47mm. So is this a square type ? Or yet another variation ? Edited April 30, 2006 by DavidM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Rear of EK1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Crown and Date from vaulted EK1 marked '800' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 (edited) Double post, sorry. Edited April 30, 2006 by DavidM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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