For Research Edged weapons

[aussiesoldier]

WWI issue German sword from the state of Hesse. This is a model 1854 Infantry Officers sword that is an army issue piece. In Cut and Thrust Weapons by Eduard Wagner, this pattern was carried by the officers of the 116^th  - 118^th Hessian infantry regiments. The blade is essentially the same blade as the M1855 Bavarian Infantry sword. Each German State had their own patterns of infantry swords prior to the introduction of the Infanterie-Degen M.1889  which was the first standard issue infantry sword for infantry troops in the armies of the German Empire.  Despite the introduction of the Infanterie-Degen M.1889, older pattern swords remained in service up to and throughout WW1. The guard design is what makes the Hessian Infantry sword stand out.This one is mine.

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[aussiesoldier]

Two of my 1889 Infantry Degen

 

The Infanterie-Degen M1889 was introduced into service as the standard issue sword for all Infantry troops in the armies of the German Empire (Prussian, Saxon, Bavarian and Wurttemberg). The various states inset their own coat of arms into the half basket guard to differentiate their own regiments, in this case the Wurttemburg crest, or as a folding guard, in this case the Prussian Eagle crest, but the sword profiles were identical. The Model 1889 Officer's Degen was in service from about 1906 to about the end of WWI. The twin fullered blade was designed for thrusting in line with the common wisdom of the time, which stated that ‘the point will always beat the edge’. Officers tended to purchase their own sword and their weapons were often ornamented and differed in quality according to price. 

Blade measures 32 1/8",

Sword measures 38

Scabbard measures 38 7/8".  

 

 

 

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[ccj]

aussiesoldier,

Thank you for your well informed reply. Your knowledge is appreciated and your swords are very nice. I have another Hessen sword to post.

I need to learn how to properly attach the Portepee to the sword hilt

[aussiesoldier]

I could not afford to buy one of the very rare Hessian Portepee so I have attached a Hessian Faustriemen or Troddel (never really been able to work out the difference but the later seems to be what is usually used).  The only logical place is to loop it around the neck of the guard.  I am open to alternatives but the two loop holes on the quillon don't seem logical nor practical.

 

Rightly or wrong I have sought to attach something to all of my swords, if only to add to their display appeal.

 

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[ccj]

Yeah, Its very confusing and I bet somewhere there are diagrams showing placement bu so far I haven't found anything

[aussiesoldier]

There is every chance, considering the Garde badge on the hilt, that your sword belonged to the Leibgarde-Infanterie-Regiment (1. Großherzoglich Hessisches) Nr. 115, of the 49. Infanterie-Brigade (1. Großherzoglich Hessische), part of the 25th Division in 1914, shortly before the outbreak of World War I.

[aussiesoldier]

PRESENTATION ARTILLERY SWORDS

 

IV Corps (German Empire)

7th Field Artillery Brigade;  4th (Magdeburg) Field Artillery Regiment

The IV Army Corps was a corps level command of the Prussian and then the Imperial German Armies from the 19th Century to World War I. It was established on 3 October 1815 as the General Command in the Duchy of Saxony and became the IV Army Corps on August 30, 1818. Its headquarters was in Magdeburg and its catchment area included the Prussian Province of Saxony and the adjacent Saxon Duchies and Principalities.

In peacetime, the Corps was assigned to the VI Army Inspectorate but joined the 1st Army at the start of the First World War. It was still in existence at the end of the war in the 6th Army, Heeresgruppe Kronprinz Rupprecht on the Western Front. The Corps was disbanded with the demobilisation of the German Army after World War I.

 

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I think #3 translates as â€œGinj.Freiw.D.Nebelungâ€, Ginj. Freiwilliger der Nebelung = Ginj . Volunteer of the Nebelung

[aussiesoldier]

19th (1st Thuringian) Field Artillery  Raised from a catchment area that included the newly annexed Province of Hesse-Nassau and the Thuringian principalities (Saxe-Weimar, Saxe-Meiningen, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Waldeck). The XI Corps was assigned to the VI Army Inspectorate but joined the predominantly Saxon 3rd Army at the start of the First World War. The regiment joined the predominantly Saxon 3rd Army at the start of the First World War forming part of the right wing of the forces for the Schlieffen Plan offensive in August 1914 on the Western Front. It participated in the capture of Namur and was immediately transferred to the Eastern Front to join the 8th Army in time to participate in the First Battle of the Masurian Lakes. It was then transferred to the 9th Army and took part in the Battle of the Vistula River. It returned to the Western Frond at the end of 1915. It was still in existence at the end of the war in the 6th Army, Heeresgruppe Kronprinz Rupprecht on the Western Front.

 

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[Eric K.]

Hey guys, please excuse my ignorance on swords.

I know that Hussars,Uhlans, even artillery carried swords but it seems (Besides Aussiesoldiers "KD98 Troopers combat sword" ) All seem to be presentation type swords.

 

Now the question: Were the majority of the real front fighting combat swords confiscated/destroyed, turned back into the unit arms room and lost forever? Or did the owners keep them?

I assume the combat swords would be of much higher quality since technically speaking they were meant to kill and defend, not some bendy metal that looks pretty.

I love looking at them, and it's another thing I need to study up on.

Keep the pics coming!!

Eric

[Chip]

Eric,

Most enlisted man's "presentation" type swords are for decoration and not meant for combat. I have seen a few that were originally issue pieces that were later etched/engraved with the soldier's unit information, but that is just a handful compared to the private purchase examples. There were a number of what I will call, combat swords, that would have been carried by enlisted men and NCOs. I could list them if you are interested or I could post a page out of "Das Deutsche Heer" that shows most of them.

Chip

[aussiesoldier]

A number of the 1889 Infantry swords that have been etched as a gift to a retiring officer or in one case I have seen, as a prize for the best shot in a competition, but they seem to have are always of a combat weight sword that is etched/engraved.  Interestingly enough, I have seen a Wurttemburg 1889 Kavallerie sword that had issue numbers and was not etched as a presentation sword but had a solid guard.  The blades of the three presentation KD89 I have vary in quality and weight so but almost always have a folding guard.   Officers were transferred between regiments so never purchased these presentationn swords using instead a lion head saber. None of my artillery swords are strong enough for combat but I almost bought a Blucher blade that had been elaborately etched.

 

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Maker marked = JOH KRUGER, LUNEBURG. Owner’s name engraved on bottom of guard = GEFR BONIG. (The rank of Gefreite was considered in English the equivalent to a British Army Lance Corporal rank.) 

 

On mobilization on 2 August 1914 the IX Corps was restructured. The 16th (2nd Hannover) Dragoons formed two half-regiments which were assigned as divisional cavalry to 17th and 18th Divisions of IX Corps. On mobilisation, IX Corps was assigned to the 1st Army on the right wing of the forces for the Schlieffen Plan offensive in August 1914 on the Western Front. It participated in the Battle of Mons and the First Battle of the Marne which marked the end of the German advances in 1914. Later it saw action in the Battle of Pozières and Battle of Amiens (1918). It was still in existence at the end of the war.

 

[aussiesoldier]

I wish I had proof read the last post - I sound almost illiterate.  Yuk.  

 

George

[ccj]

You can edit

[Trajan]

The marking appears to be "3.K.R.3.119", which to me would stand for "Kürassier Regiment Nr.3, 3.Eskadron, 119" The 119 being the weapon's number. However, my reference on weapons markings say the Kürassier used only a "K", no "R".

... It's also possible that the markings mean entirely something else.

 

Chip

 

I agree with Chip. Kürassiere did use only a "K".

The sabre ist stamped with 1920. What about a changing of the regimental stamp? Please have a look at the K. There is a bow above it. If yes, it could be changed into an R. So we´d have:

3./R.R.3.119

In 1920 it would indicate the 3.Esk./Reiter-Regiment 3, weapon 119. The 3./RR3 was in Stendal.

 

Having research sword markings for my own collection, there is nothing more confusing than pre-WW1 unit markings. One list I have copied suggests K.R. could simply be Kavallerie-Regiment

First things first - the system of markings did change over time so be careful to use the correct regulations for the relevant period!

Second, it is not at all clear from the photograph if the erased mark on the hilt is the same as the scabbard. It looks close, and I will assume that it is. In which case a 1915 sword and scabbard should be marked according to the 1909 regulations (DVE 185), as later ammended, in which case a regular 'K' on a sword and scabbard is appropriate for 'Kavallerie' - but also for 'Kommando', and for 'Kriegsschule'. (And it IS a 'K' not a large 'R' as [1], the letters were always the same size in these markings, and [2], you can see the serifs at the top of the upstrokes on the 'K'!). But I can't think of a military command or kriegsschule that begins with an 'R',,,, In which case, given that DVE 185 gives a regular 'R' for 'Regiment' and also for 'Rekrutendepot', then I would suggest 'Kavallerie Regiment Nr.3, Esk.3, waffe 119' or 'Kavallerie [Regiment] Nr.3 Rekrutendepot, Esk.3, waffe 119'.

BUT, that creates a problem... To the best of my knowledge there was no 'Kavallerie Regiment Nr.3'... There was, however, a Kürassier Regiment Nr.3, and although the 1909 regulations do not show a 'K' for Kürassier, they do give - as an example - the marking 'G.K.' as the official marking for the Garde-Kürassier Regiment... So, I reckon it is an 'irregular' marking designating the Kürassier Regiment Nr.3

As for the 1920' mark, this is a nice example of this official marking - and examples on swords are rare as there were so few swords around in the post-1920 German Army! (And while on that subject, although I cannot check right now, I should make it clear that I am pretty certain this marking is not a post-1920 one as if I recall correctly, the marking system under the Weimar was quite different from this.) That apart, for those who don't know, the 1920 mark indicates that this was one of those weapons selected for service use by the Reichswehr after the order of 1 August 1920 (HVBl. 657/7.20.J2.(W2) IV), that all weapons held by them be stamped with the year-mark 1920 to show these have been officially retained for service use as per the Treaty of Versailles regulations.  This order, by the way was re-confirmed on 28 August 1920 (HVBl. 498/8.20.J2 (W2)), with official instructions issued 28 September 1920 regarding the size and placement of the mark (HVBl. 302/9.20.J2.(W2)). 

 

Trajan

Edited August 3, 2015 by Trajan

[eurorders]

I bought a Cavalry sword the other day, lions head "grosser" model and I am intrigued by the number set on the langet. Please tell me if I am on the mark or not...

Prussian imperial deluxe pattern  Lions head “Grosser/larger” (also known as “fighting weight”) artillery sword (shown left for comparison with standard model) and scabbard made sometime between 1912 and 1914. Pantherhead quillon. Fishskin grip covering. Triple wrap grip wire.  Etched and nickeled blade excellent condition. Circa 1900. Deeply gilt lion head pommel with red ruby eyes.  Scabbard is blued steel with 2 brass scabbard bands.

Engraved, large curved blade; sharkskin grip; elaborate scrolling on knuckle quill. It has a  shield hallmark and Geschultze Muster. Helmeted Athena head on outside backstrap of handle. Oakleaves on solid wide knucklebow.  And on reverse langet, the numbers 6/.58 then a small 3. That might have meant 6th Corps artillery, 58th Regiment, 3rd weapon. The obverse langet is crossed cannons.  Made by Clemen & Jung. Maybe issued to an officer in an Upper Silesian military unit.   A somewhat similar model featured on pages 83, 86, 88 and 89 of the book, “Imperial German Edged Weaponry”

I bought a ARTILLERY (earlier typo) sword the other day, lions head "grosser" model and I am intrigued by the number set on the langet. Please tell me if I am on the mark or not...

Prussian imperial deluxe pattern  Lions head “Grosser/larger” (also known as “fighting weight”) artillery sword (shown left for comparison with standard model) and scabbard made sometime between 1912 and 1914. Pantherhead quillon. Fishskin grip covering. Triple wrap grip wire.  Etched and nickeled blade excellent condition. Circa 1900. Deeply gilt lion head pommel with red ruby eyes.  Scabbard is blued steel with 2 brass scabbard bands.

Engraved, large curved blade; sharkskin grip; elaborate scrolling on knuckle quill. It has a  shield hallmark and Geschultze Muster. Helmeted Athena head on outside backstrap of handle. Oakleaves on solid wide knucklebow.  And on reverse langet, the numbers 6/.58 then a small 3. That might have meant 6th Corps artillery, 58th Regiment, 3rd weapon. The obverse langet is crossed cannons.  Made by Clemen & Jung. Maybe issued to an officer in an Upper Silesian military unit.   A somewhat similar model featured on pages 83, 86, 88 and 89 of the book, “Imperial German Edged Weaponry”

[eurorders]

I appreciate these too...