scottish drum ?

[blueman]

very early drum info needed

[Jerry B]

Looks distressed if you get my meaning.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Very unusual drum - it has the Scottish Crown and the Thistle emblems. The question is - was it made for a play as a prop, or

is it a genuine item. Bonnie Prince Charlie - the pretender to the Throne and son of the exiled King James 2nd - Brother of Charles

2nd. - started his insurrection in Scotland in the 1740's. He reached the outskirts of Manchester in 1745 and was then turned back.

Should this be genuine then it has to date back to around the 1745's - he was defeated at the Battle of Culloden Moor. The British

destroyed all items such as this one - so, if genuine it would have been kept in hiding.

For once I am tempted to believe that this could be a genuine and historical item - the fact that it was hand carried and not slung

over one shoulder somehow , seems important. We all make assumptions on 'gut' feelings - and I will not be at all surprised to

be told that I am talking rubbish and it is a fake. However, if it was mine I would be making all sorts of enquiries - particularly at

Edinburgh Castle. The whole appearance is one of age - with the paint and Heraldry. Mervyn

[Mervyn Mitton]

Kev has IM'd to say the description he has been given is that it is for the Duke of Atholl and dates to around 1720.

I would agree with that, The Dukes of Atholl had permission to raise troops from the Crown. The headpiece could be

either a Duke's Coronet - or, the Crown of Scotland to show allegiance. Paintwork would indicate age and the style of

the woodwork. Certainly worth a 'spirited' attempt to purchase.

[blueman]

cheers mervyn any idea of a value,a difficult one for me ...kev

[Jock Auld]

Kev has IM'd to say the description he has been given is that it is for the Duke of Atholl and dates to around 1720.

I would agree with that, The Dukes of Atholl had permission to raise troops from the Crown. The headpiece could be

either a Duke's Coronet - or, the Crown of Scotland to show allegiance. Paintwork would indicate age and the style of

the woodwork. Certainly worth a 'spirited' attempt to purchase.

Mervyn,

I would have to strongly disagree with you support of the item. If the opinion of this item can be deduced from these pictures then it makes a mockary of all the 'experts' opinions on various sites that at least ask for close ups before calling an item correct. If 'kevin1947' asks on enough forums eventualy someone on these fora expresses a 'gut feeling' that is posative, he can then move forward with a quick pitch and punt it on. The string looks very clean the varnish pretty fresh, the detail looks like 'Chinese' knock off quality, there is no size or scale to provide for comparison of anything known and does it really look nearly 300 years old? I am not convinced. Sorry.

[Brian Wolfe]

I’m on the “fence” on this one Mervyn. Certainly if it were made as a stage prop it would not have the look of age as they are usually trying to make the item look the same period as the play. The other thing that makes me think it is not a prop is that the detail on the coat of arms is too accurate, yet not as accurate or clear as to have been made for television of the movie industry.

The ropes don’t have “age”; however, one would expect that the ropes could have been replaced, though why they would be is a mystery. I’ve seen some good reproductions coming out of India and China lately and this may (note “may”) be one of them. Lately we’ve had a number of powder kegs and wooden water bottles from the Napoleonic and Crimean War periods surface at shows, all reproductions; I think made for the re-enactor enthusiasts. None of these “new” antiques have been made to look old as they need to fit in with the period in which the enactors are portraying. Even the keg rings are correct, being made of wood and not iron which might have cause a spark in the past.

Overall I think this is too good to be an original and just antiqued enough to be a decor item. It is my opinion that there has been an effort to make it look like an item of antiquity yet it fails to demonstrate the damage one would expect from something that would have been moved about from time to time and handled over a two hundred plus time span. It would be interesting to be able to touch the drum heads to see if they are pliable or stiff due to drying out over the years.

If I were looking at adding this to the collection I would have to really think seriously about laying out any cash. So, Kevin, I’ve written a lot and given you no help what-so-ever. Sorry, but they do pay me by the word.

Regards

Brian

[blueman]

thanks brian its not my area just thouight interesting waiting fore more pics which may help...kev

[Jock Auld]

Brian,

You should be a politition LOL!

[peter monahan]

I think Brian has done an excellent job - 'diplomatic' as opposed to 'political' - of conveying his uneasiness with this piece. I'm no expert but my 'gut feeling' is 'No!' No one even felt the need to point out that the Young Pretender's lads probably had better things to do than be decorating drums! Even as "the Duke of Atholl's" it doesn't pass the smell test for me either. I tend to Jock's assessment - less diplomatic but to the same end!

[Jock Auld]

Peter, Brian, Blueman, Kevin, Kevin1947,etc,

I am sorry I am a hot head or a twat at times and I am sure most of you would all rather I just turned to the right and moved on as it is uncomfortable when you confront issues rather than ignore them.

Kevin, it would be easier to ask what is your area rather than dance around the edge (click on his posts etc)? It remains a mystery to me and I am an avid follower of you on the other fora too?

What is demonstratable is that you buy random stuff from auctions then seek other peoples opinion with a view to a quick 'flip', for sure not a crime but equaly people should know what you are about and that even a casual endorsment may mean a suspect sale for you? I notice you also seek info on militarytrader.co.uk and these folk have been recently outed on WRF as being fraudsters although it is common knowledge, I would post the link but I am unable to.

Some times it goes wrong for you and for that I am grateful. It is not what these fora are about but it is becoming the standard?

If we endorse this then fine, just shows its all the same pooh just a different smell. Here is no better than anywhere else.

Auf wiedersehen I suppose!

[Brian Wolfe]

I am sorry I am a hot head or a twat at times and I am sure most of you would all rather I just turned to the right and moved on as it is uncomfortable when you confront issues rather than ignore them.

Hi Jock,

Don't beat yourself up, I've never found your opinion or your mannerisms to be less than welcomed here. An opinion was asked for and given, Kevin is a big boy (meaning mature not necessarily of large stature) and I'm sure he realizes everyone has and is welcomed to an opinion.

I tend to be a bit too diplomatic at times, I suppose but as long as I don't give away someone else's country (a Chamberlain comment) Mervyn will forgive me.

Regards

Brian

[blueman]

guys i do tend to go for obscure items,some i flip some i keep,i thought the idea of forums is to share knowlege,ive had guys offering to buy from me things on forum,most items i pass on the link to them,on the plus side i like to ruffle a few feathers,thats what keeps us going....cheers kev

[Mervyn Mitton]

Jock - I/we have no problem what-so-ever with comments on articles. Should they be adverse to our point of view, that

is not a problem - I actually said that I would not be surprised if someone disagreed. With regard to our

comments - they are given in good faith - however, GMIC takes no responsibility for them - and neither does

the person posting. They are comments and the decision as to whether he acts on them is his alone.

Having said that , Kev posts some very interesting items and personally, I am quite happy to help in any way.

Don't most of our Members sell-on to keep money for other items - I know you do Jock and again, you

show items we can research and comment-on.

Back to the Drum - The Dukes of Atholl were the only Scottish Nobility given a Royal Warrant to raise their

own Army in supporrt of the Crown. Despite this, at the period we are talking about they were a pretty rough

bunch. The Drum has a certain look from the period and the paintwork and Arms are as they would have

been at that time. I have said the drum is worthy of research - and as already said - that is Kev's decision,

not mine. However, 60 years of experience is just saying to me - don't discard without a little research. Mervyn

[peter monahan]

I, from the depths of my ignorance - 40 years of largely sitting on the sidelines watching, as opposed to buying, selling and owning - was agreeing with Jock's assessment of the object. Don't disagree that it is worthy of research but as a 'gut feeling', it still smells. I hadn't payed a huge amount of attention to the remarks anent a 'quick flip' except to agree to myself that it leaves a bit of a sour taste. However, I wasn't offended by the remarks and have to agree with Mervyn, on calm second thought, that one man's quick flip is another man's investment in the hobby. Its certainly how I've paid for things in the past.

On the topic of 'dealers', however one defines that term, I can only quote my father, a professor of philosophy: 'knowledge is neither good nor bad' and, by extension, sharing knowledge generally does not carry any moral burden. We are here because we like to see, discuss and research militaria. If someone uses the collective 'wisdom' of the group to sell something, rightly or wrongly identified, we are not morally culpable in either case. It's about intent, IMHO, and I don't intend to enrich or impoverish anyone by my historical maunderings.

No harm, no foul, gentlemen?

Edited January 3, 2015 by peter monahan

[Brian Wolfe]

i thought the idea of forums is to share knowlege,

Kevin, please don't go down that road, or at least until you purchase a dictionary and look up the word "share". The issue some members have with you is that it seems that it is always one sided when it comes to your posts. This, I have it on good account, is a problem you have had on other forums. Two points come to mind in this regard. First, if a member is not happy with you asking for opinons then the solution is simple, just don't respond. Secondly, if you take the last two items you have posted, the smatchet and the drum, as examples, where is one to find out information on such items. If you didn't know the fighting knife was callled a smatchet then where would you turn but to the collectors on forums such as this one. These knives certainly don't grow on trees. In the case of the drum I would think it even harder to find out anything about them; I understand that "Drums R us" closed several years ago. I am sure that if another member, in the future, were to ask what a smatchet was I would hope that you would be quick to respond, since you now have that knowledge.

As far as giving valuations, it is no secret that I am against this policy. Why? Members, even Senior Moderators cannot, by law, bind the forum by anything they do. However, giving a valuation can have solcial repercussions if that valuation "kills" a sale of a purchase. My opinion on this is that if a member wants to offer a valuation then do so through either a PM or by email and not on the public forum. I probably stand alone on this issue but I do indeed "stand". Here's my advice to you or any anyone. If you are a dealer then purchse the item at a cost that allows at least a 100% mark up, unless it is jewelry then it is 200+%. Anyone in business knows why this is, overhead and length of time your money will be tied up. If you are a collector/dealer then shoot for a 50 to 60% mark up and if you are a collector then just be content to recover your purchase price.

As far as the drum is concerned, if the smatchet were offered and I collected British edged weapons I would consider it, however I would not want the drum in my collection at any price. Is that saying the drum is not authentic? No, it's just that I would not take a risk on purchasing it based on my gut feeling. Regarding "gut feelings" check out the book "Blink".

Now, of course, you have a couple of different opinions and must make the discission as to purchase or walk away (walk away, walk away whispered in the back ground).

Now, as to listening to experts. I have handled firearms since I was still in grade school, a total of well over 60 years, so some might mistake me for an expert in firearms. I would go as far as to say that I do think I know quite a bit about them. Having said that, I am now in the process of rebuilding a German MP40 that I purchased two months ago as an original. I missed a couple of details and ended up purchasing what amounted to some good original parts with matching serial numbers. I was lucky that I didn't pay a lot more than I should have for the parts I am now working with but still I missed the small points that should have told me it was not 100% original. So I am saying that anyone can make a mistake, however I was actually handling the MP40 and the members here are only going by a small single photo of the drum. If you think that a so called expert is only as good as his last evaluation then I am vindicated because just before Christmas I managed to purchase a Mk 5 Sten Gun that I have wanted for some time and it is 100% genuine.

Good luck on the drum Kevin, if you make the purchase I will be most happy to be wrong about it.

Regards

Brian

[Stuart Bates]

Hello Kevin,

I see that you are getting the same reception here as on the forum where we “disagreed” on your using forums to garner information to sell items recently or about to be purchased.

I stated then and re-state now that I am against both this somewhat “parasitic” approach, and to the giving of valuations to which Brian has stated the objections rather well.

Nothing more need be said as it has already been said by the other members.

Stuart

Edited January 4, 2015 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

Kevin,

you said you like to ruffle feathers so this should keep you going. For everyone's information http://auctions.freemansauction.com/auction-lot-detail/Early%20Georgian%20Scottish%20military%20drum,%20circa%201720,%20probably%20/1511+++++163+/++919551

Stuart

Edited January 4, 2015 by Stuart Bates

[jocktamson]

LOL....Blunderbuss Antiques as Provenance, didnt realise they had been around since 1720

[blueman]

i think ive had a drumhead courtmartial

[Mervyn Mitton]

Blunderbuss Antiques are a reputable firm and have been around for many years.

I think many of the comments here are rather moralistic - some years ago, I fell out with Kev over this issue

of obtaining information. I gave the matter further thought , and realised that his posts often allow Members

to see items that might not be known to them - and, also allow our membership to comment on both the item

and it's historical aspect.

I would say that Kev is welcome to post these items - our choice is whether we answer them - or, not.

One final point - Kev is a Goldmember - and that in itself is enough to see that his questions are answered

and that he is treated with respect.

[blueman]

thanks for your kind words mervyn,i really had no intention of bidding on drum or causing offence to anyone,i just thought it was an interesting object,and as such would attract interesting replies as few people outside museums would know much about items of that age

[Brian Wolfe]

As Mervyn has stated, and in agreement with my earlier statement, if members are not comfortable in responding to Kevin's posts then the best avenue for them to take is to not simply respond to his posts.

"Drumhead courtmarshal", I hope that was a joke as it did make me laugh, good one. I would suggest, Kevin, that if you are posting an item for general interest for the membership that you don't word it as if you are the one in need of infoemation or valuation. A simple, "Thought this might be interesting" would be much better then stating that you need information on the item.

I do not see where any level of membership, gold or other wise, obligates any member to respond, however, I do see your point Mervyn.

As far as offending anyone, Kevin, I don't believe you have done so and if you did I am confident that it was unintentional. Many members are quite sensitive to dealers using the forum to further their own financial gain, without pointing a finger at you as that is not my intention, this practice is not acceptable in their eyes. We are indeed, as you correctly pointed out, a forum the exists to further the knowledge in military subjects and share our knowledge. Within those parameters and conditions you are more than welcomed to participate in conversations and exchange of knowledge on this forum.

Here's looking forward to a clearer understanding between all parties.

Regards

Brian

[Jerry B]

Hello Kevin,

I see that you are getting the same reception here as on the forum where we “disagreed” on your using forums to garner information to sell items recently or about to be purchased.

I stated then and re-state now that I am against both this somewhat “parasitic” approach, and to the giving of valuations to which Brian has stated the objections rather well.

Nothing more need be said as it has already been said by the other members.

Stuart

I have also had much the same discussion with Kevin on other forums and depending on what mood I am in, I either ignore or offer opinions on the objects Kevin asks about.

That is perhaps the best option for any of us to adopt, answer the queries if you want to or are interested enough to do so, or simply ignore them.

[jocktamson]

Blunderbuss Antiques are a reputable firm and have been around for many years.

I think many of the comments here are rather moralistic - some years ago, I fell out with Kev over this issue

of obtaining information. I gave the matter further thought , and realised that his posts often allow Members

to see items that might not be known to them - and, also allow our membership to comment on both the item

and it's historical aspect.

I would say that Kev is welcome to post these items - our choice is whether we answer them - or, not.

One final point - Kev is a Goldmember - and that in itself is enough to see that his questions are answered

and that he is treated with respect.

Mervyn ....

1. I was not questioning Blunderbuss Antiques reputabilty, It was said tongue in cheek, i was merely commenting on the fact that the Auction house are supplying them as Provenance, when the drum supposedly originates from the 1720s. I dont know what your idea of provenance is, but something from 1720 needs a little more substantial provenance than a dealer from 1994 saying its original.

2. I would agree Kev is entitled to post requests for information whenever he feels like it. However, he obviously had much more information than he was originally prepared to share. If he would like honest opinions on something, put any information he has at hand on the object and let everyone have a starting point to at least form an opinion on and decide if they want to contribute. I am not suggesting he put the auction site, or where its for sale. 'very early drum info needed' is fairly vague when you already have some information on the object to hand.

3. I agree with Brian, the level of membership should have no bearing on whether someone feels obligated to respond to a request for information. I thought we shared Information for a common good, not because someone has paid more for a membership than someone else.

4. I'll finish by simply agreeing it's up to individual members how much information they feel they should or should not provide, in my case. I am more than happy to contribute information if i can, but providing valuations if requested is something that i personally am not prepared to do.

Edited January 4, 2015 by jocktamson