USMC Sergeant-Major Uniform

[Thierry]

Bonjour,

My last acquisition :

- a USMC Blue Sergeant-Major Uniform, with 26 ribbons and nine mark of seniority (36 year), expert pistol and rifle with 7th award badge ...

Cordialement

Thierry

[Thierry]

other .../...

[Thierry]

and last .

Thierry

[Paul R]

What a distinquished career he has had! Active duty for three wars! Active duty since 1973!

[Dudeman]

Are you positive this set wasn't manufactured? That's quite a rack there and I'm sure this person would be researchable and/or legendary - quite a lot of valor awards there plus LONG service.

[NavyFCO]

I hope you didn't buy this as a "real" uniform as it isn't. It will look pretty cool on display though...

Dave

[Thierry]

Bonjour,

When I bought it, it was said to me that it marine had entered in service in 1970 (I don't have the month), that it was sent to Vietnam (September 1971-September 1972), that it served 4 years in embassies, took part has various operations (Panama, Grenade, El Salvador, Lebanon, and Haiti), first war of the Gulf, Afghanistan and Iraq... retired in January 2006

For the medals, I don't know if they are true or fake.

The OSD ID Badge I added it.

Others bagdes be with the uniform.

For me I think that this uniform is true.

Sorry for my english language.

Cordialment

Thierry

Edited March 11, 2006 by Thierry

[NavyFCO]

Here's why I don't like this uniform.

First, if you were to take away the Navy Cross and the Legion of Merit, this uniform MIGHT be believeable. However, both awards are exceedly rare in the Marine Corps, with the LOM being exceedingly rare amongst enlisted personnel especially.

Second, the "norm" for Marine ribbons these days is to wear the ribbons four across with a 1/8 spacing. They don't have to have the spacing, but I've never seen a Marine with this many ribbons and only wearing them three across.

Third, a Force Recon Marine who went back and forth from the operational Marine Force Recon teams to Embassy duty? Sounds quite unlikely to me.

Where's his Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal? If he was in theater to earn both the theater medals for Afghanistan and Iraq, then he would have been there enough to get a GWOTEM as well.

Fifth, where's his JMUC and NUC? Nearly every Marine unit that fought in the first Gulf War (and this guy was there for all but one campaign) was awarded both the JMUC and the NUC. Also, if he were in Iraq and Afghanistan, chances are that one of those units would have gotten at least a NUC.

Sixth, if he took part in all the operations stated, especially as a Force Recon guy, I would expect more than two CARs on his chest. One of the Marines that works for me did the first Gulf War, Grenda and Iraq and he has three... if this guy were in all the operations stated (and earned five AFEMs) he'd have more than two CARs.

Seventh, he went on all those operations and only ended up with four SSDRs? I don't think that's likely either.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it looks like someone tossed this guy together at the tailor shop. Unless there's a valid name that came with it (and it should be easy to track him down as this guy would have been a Marine Corps legend) I'm going to have to say that this is put together.

Dave

[dsgrant]

The medals are also grossly out of order and all over the place.Still would look good if you sorted them out for display.

[NavyFCO]

The medals are also grossly out of order and all over the place.Still would look good if you sorted them out for display.

Actually, they are in the correct order. It's just an impossible group, that's all.

Dave

[Thierry]

Bonjour,

Thanks men for info.

I'm not a specialist of the Marines.,

The name WARREN J.M. written in the collar.

To make the unit coherent, which m?dailes should be presente ?

Cordialement

Thierry

[Dave Danner]

Bonjour,

When I bought it, it was said to me that it marine had entered in service in 1970 (I don't have the month), that it was sent to Vietnam (September 1971-September 1972), that it served 4 years in embassies, took part has various operations (Panama, Grenade, El Salvador, Lebanon, and Haiti), first war of the Gulf, Afghanistan and Iraq... retired in January 2006

Only three Navy Crosses were awarded in Vietnam after September 1971 to Marines. All three recipients were Captains - Ray L. Smith, John W. Ripley, and Lawrence H. Livingston. No Marine enlisted man received a Navy Cross after Vietnam until OIF. The highest ranking enlisted recipient of a Navy Cross for Iraq do far is Gunnery Sergeant Justin D. Lehew.

Also, I don't see a J.M. Warren in the post-1982 CAR/HSM database. The only "J. Warren" without a middle initial there is Jason Warren. He is a sergeant who received the CAR for Iraq in 2003 and a Humanitarian Service Medal for Joint Task Force Liberia later that year.

[Thierry]

Bonjour,

Thanks Dave for all infos.

Thierry

[Michael Johnson]

I put this one to a retired career Marine who I know from another Forum. Here is his reply:

Michael:

The uniform blouse is certainly genuine. As for the awards, I cannot absolutely say for certain if they are or not.

The case for the Navy Cross certainly seems to be a "checkable" since they are indeed rare awards (something like 363 were awarded to USMC personnel during the war in RVN, mostly to officers--both my company commander and my battalion commander were so awarded in Hue in 1968). Dave Danner makes a good case, since he is correct about those who were awarded that medal after 1970.

The NavyFCO cat (also named Dave?) also makes a sound but not necessarily conclusive case about some of the other awards. Unit awards tend to be given in huge numbers and everyone who attends the party gets his "door prize."

I disagree about recon weenies not being sent to State Department duty. That is a plum assignment that every FMF Marine SNCO would seek out. Junior Marines on Embassy duty could not have dependants while so engaged in that duty, but SNCO's are allowed to take their wives and children with them. I took mine with me and it was one of the best tours we had.

The bit about four-across ribbon mounts is certainly a point. With no lapel (the blouse of the Blue Dress uniform has none), such a mounting would be preferable because it would reduce the height of the mounting. Notice how the SCUBA badge is mounted almost to the epilette shoulder seem.

Last, in the issue of awards is the missing Viet Nam Civil Action unit citation. This is an award that every Marine who served in RVN after 1970 was awarded .

The name stamped in the collar is less than significant. Several uniform items that I owned were "second hand" items that I acquired from other Marines when they left active service. Their names were sometimes stamped in those items.

BTW, Colonel Livingston--who received the Navy Cross in RVN--is known to me. Heroes are what we believe they are, and I believe that he is genuinely one.

I share my doubts with the two contributors who registered their own. Hope this helps.

My compliments, sir.

Not conclusive, but it adds some additional points.

[slava1stclass]

To all:

Based on what I've observed over the years, it's not particularly difficult to "assemble" a period uniform e.g., an original WW II U.S. Army "Ike" jacket by sprucing it up with some period ribbons/badges. The individual components are readily available at militaria shows, thrift shops, and a well-known auction site, among others. In knowledgeable hands, such a "package" can be assembled, assigned an appropriate "history/provenance" and then "pitched."

It's amazing what people jump at/are sucked into - an Ike jacket with a couple of period patches, some overseas service bars, a period sterling silver CIB and period ribbons will reel them in. Some forum members know this better than I.

This case, however, was definitely heavy on the show versus go (i.e. credibility/backstopping).

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited March 14, 2006 by slava1stclass

[John R. Angolia]

While we are talking about a Marine dress blue uniform here, I would like to make an appeal for assistance.

I have recently acquired such a uniform that raises some questions. It is complete in every respect--all covers, belts/buckles, etc. Here are my questions:

1. Among the various covers are a white top and a blue top with red piping.

2. There are two belts for the dress blue uniform--the standard white with plain brass buckle, and a blue wool belt with polished brass buckle with ega within a wreath.

Under what circumstances would the white cover and white belt, and blue cover with blue belt be worn?

What awards would be worn--ribbons vs medals? Would the white gloves be worn with either configuration?

Thank you in advance for any assistance. Jack Angolia