A special M17 steel helmet

[Adler 1]

This seems to be an international purchase… I bought as a Belgian a German helmet at a militaria show in France and the seller was Dutch.
However, that’s not the most interesting thing about this helmet. Maybe some of you know that Doug B. had posted his first ever German helmet with this horizontal red stripe from lug to lug on another forum… well this one seems to be a very close relative.
Both helmets have this interesting red stripe and they are both double camouflaged. The black lines from the first camo can be seen very well through the second layer of camo. In my opinion the  colors are also exactly the same on both helmets.

According to someone who commented on Doug’s thread, this red stripe should be a wound stripe as used by the Austro-Hungarian army. He had two Austrian helmets with a red stripe in his collection.
Since I have only seen two of these (German) helmets and since they are both configured in the same way, I don’t see the connection with the Austrians. I sure hope someone can enlighten this or can provide some sort of explanation for this red stripe. Other possibilities that were mentioned was stretcher bearer, rank distinction, special service,...

This M17 helmet is an ET64 (producer: Eisenhüttenwerke Thale A.G.and size: 64), and is also named but I can’t read it… After playing a bit with Photoshop, the “AK” mark and an ink (paint) stamp “64” also become visible.
Anyway, no matter what the red stripe stands for, I’m very happy with this helmet. Hope you gentlemen also like it…

Adler 1

[Chris Boonzaier]

A very fine Helmet indeed... Is the unit 10/128 ?

I find the red stripe to be very open to guessing... and really dont buy the wound theory...

It is possible that it was simply done within a single Battalion of a certain regiment and we will never find the reason behind them.

My guess, based on assumption but hopefully just as valid as anyone elses, is that it was used for identification within a unit?

Either to show which part of the unit....Maybe 1st section one stripe, 2nd section two, etc...

Or the function of the wearer...  Grenade throwers one stripe, Messengers two stripes etc (Once gasmasks were being worn a Junior officer would have trouble picking out the functions of his men ? So it would have been much easier if he knew one stripers carried messages, two stripers were MG08/15 team, etc. etc...

[Chris Boonzaier]

I.E.

"Are you guys from the 2nd Zug? Müller... ist that you?"

[Adler 1]

Thaks for your reply Chris!

Chip has pointed out that the pencil marks say "Rogg 10/124"... This would mean the name of the soldier is "Rogg" and he served in the 10th company of I.R.124 (Württemberg). This rules out the Austrian theory...

I think your theory  about the identification within the unit is also very plausible. Let's hope we can find hard evidence for that soon!

 

Adler 1

Edited September 4, 2015 by Adler 1

[Hoss]

What's the C 1 under Rogg? Germans used a red lacquer the stripe looks to have been masked then painted to me. Personally I wouldn't rule out another Army ie: Austria just because of a pencilled name and I'll be amazed if its a 'wound stripe' myself, why? nice camo.

Eric

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

 

is there any reason to believe there is an austrian connection wit this helmet?

 

[Hoss]

Why not Chris just because the helmet maker is German doesn't rule out use by Austrians late '16 well into '17 is just one example. Also I think it's a mistake to nail down a helm over an id'd rear rim. It only means at some point a soldier marked it imo.I've had plenty of the blighters but to my recollection never claimed it 'belonged' to the soldier.

Eric

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

 

sure, anything is possible, my question being why would we think this particular one was used by the Austrians? I know little about Austrian Militaria, but did they have cammo like this?

That austrians used a German helmet could theoretically be true for any helmet.

[Adler 1]

Doug's helmet was taken (by the vet who brought it home) in Peronne (France) and to my knowledge there were no Austrians stationed. My helmet seems to have been named and the wearer also pencilled 10/124 in it... a German regiment... Both helmets are camoed twice in the same way, the same colors are used and both have this red stripe... They most likely have served in the same unit...

Because of all the above, it's unlikely that these helmets were worn by Austrians... also just presuming of course!

Here are a few pics to compare with Doug's helmet.

 

Adler 1

 

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think the camo shades are quite distinctive? We can maybe assume they were done at the same place?

[KIR]

Hi,

nice helmet! I found in the casualty lists:. Adolf Roog - 10. Komp. Inf.-Rgt. 124 - leicht verwundet: 

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/5142176

Best regards,

Jens

Edited September 3, 2015 by KIR

[Hoss]

Thanks for the link KIR and Karel for pics of the other helm. Any more on 'the vet' other its worthless info we know even from the pics it's period camo. I asked a gent I trust he's seen W1 painted stripes on US range officer helmets,for firing range grenades etc, maybe a clue.

Eric

[Adler 1]

Thaks for your comments gentlemen!

So, the soldier's name is Adolf Rogg, born on April 4 1896, he served in 10th company of IR124 (Wurtemberg) and he was slightly wounded (Thank you Jens!). Meanwhile I've also been reading a bit about IR124 and it seems they fought first in Argonne, than in Flanders and after that in the Somme region... Also very interesting was that IR124 was in Peronne between 25 and 31 July 1918. They stayed in the region until 11th November... If you can understand some German, here's the link to this interesting article: http://genwiki.genea...R_124#Uniformen

Große feindliche Offensive (Juli bis November 1918)

• 25. Juli bis 4. August 1918:

• Nächtliche Fußmärsche nördlich Cambrai vorbei in den Raum südlich Péronne (25. bis 31. Juli 1918).
• Fußmarsch ans Nordufer der Somme (2. bis 4. August 1918).

• 3. bis 28. August 1918:

• Abwehrkämpfe an der Somme:

• Übernahme von Stellungen bei Morlancourt (3. bis 4. August 1918).
• Angriff auf die gegnerischen Stellungen zur Wiedereroberung des der Vorgänger-Division verloren gegangenen Vorfeldes (6. August 1918).
• Abwehr des englischen Großangriffes auf Morlancourt. Das Regiment verliert bei der Einnahme von Morlancourt die Großteile der sechs den Ort verteidigenden Kompagnien und muß vor dem nachfolgenden Tank-Angriff bis an den Westrand des Tailles-Waldes zurückgehen (8. August 1918).
• Das Regiment wird im Pionier-Lager nördlich Bray neu formiert. Die zwei neugebildeten provisorischen Bataillone (Bataillon „Bosch“: 9., 10., 11. und 12./IR 124 mit 2. MG-Kompagnie, Bataillon „Schaidler“: Rest des Regiments zu zwei Kompagnien und 1. MG-Kompagnie) übernehmen eine Zwischenstellung an der Straße Bray – Albert und Bray – Fricourt, Bataillon „Bosch“ später an der Straße Bray – Corbie in vorderster Linie. (10. August 1918).
• Erholung im Biwak in Curlu (16. bis 18. August 1918).
• Besetzung von Stellungen in vorderster Linie an der Straße Méaulte – Etmehem (18. auf 19. August 1918).
• Beim englischen Angriff nach dreitägiger Tromelfeuervorbereitung wird das Bataillon „Schaidler“ durch die gegnerische Feuerwalze abgeschnitten und gerät mit den Überlebenden in Gefangenschaft. Der Rest des Regiments zieht sich auf das Pionier-Lager Curlu zurück (22. und 23. August 1918).
• Biwak im Hammerwald bei Curlu. Das Regiment besteht aus einem Bataillon mit zwei Kompagnien und einer MG-Abteilung (23. bis 25. August 1918).
• Abwehrkämpfe an der Höhe östlich Curlu und der Roten Ferme (25. bis 28. August 1918).
• Loslösung vom Feind und Rückzug in das Waldstück zwischen Liéramont und Nurlu (28. auf 29. August 1918).
• Marsch nach Viesly zwischen Cambrai und Le Cateau nach zweitägiger Rast (31. August bis 1. September 1918).
• Auffüllung der Mannschaftsbestände durch Eingliederung der Reste des II. Bataillons des aufgelösten Württembergischen Reserve-Infanterie-Regiments Nr. 247 (2. September 1918).
• Verlegung nach Muceray bei Nouillon-Pont (4. bis 9. September 1918). Das Regiment wird behelfsmäßig in drei Bataillone zu drei Kompagnien und einer MG-Kompagnie eingeteilt.
• Bezug der neuer Stellungen auf Höhe 307 bei Loison und Stellungskämpfe vor Verdun (11. September bis 28. Oktober 1918).
• Verlegung nach Mouzay an der Maas (südlich Stenay) und Ruhe in Mouzay (28. bis 31. Oktober 1918).
• Bezug neuer Stellungen bei Barricourt und Nouart (1. November 1918).
• Abwehr amerikanischer Angriffe bei Barricourt (1. bis 3. November 1918).
• Rückzug über Ober- und Nieder-Champy (Les Champys) auf Stellungen bei der Maucourt-Ferme (3. November 1918).
• Rückzug auf Stellungen auf den Höhen südlich der Goudrun-Ferme und vor den nachdrängenden Amerikanern bis hinter die Maas bei Pouilly und Autréville (4. November 1918).
• Abwehr amerikanische Angriffe auf Autréville (10. auf 11. November 1918).

Regarding Doug's helmet was brought back from Peronne and my helmet is marked IR124, we can with a high grade of certainty say that our helmets were worn by soldiers of 10th Company of Wurtembergisches Infanterie Regt. 124. For me this is one step closer to solving the mistery  , but I really want to know the meaning of that red stripe  ... 

 

One side note: Did you know Erwin Rommel also served in IR124  ?

 

Eric, the "C1" you see, is actually the size "64" stamped with ink...

 

Adler 1

 

[Hoss]

I think the camo shades are quite distinctive? We can maybe assume they were done at the same place?

High probability, I'm surmising they were both repainted very late in the war (Karel's helmet doesn't look to have been worn much from the liner condition imo) I wonder if db's lid has the ghost of a leather liner band? anyway nice helmets.

Thanks Karel C1 of course 64 lol!

[Chris Liontas]

I remember I had a iii Reich tunic with cord under the shoulder board.  I was told this denoted company or even platoon within a regiment.    

 

Could  a stripe like this be the same basic idea within a unit?   I would think in the Argonne that would be useful. The wound stripe doesn't make much sense does it in a unit standpoint?   

 

 

Those are awesome helmets!   Was the red (not the stripe) standard on helmets like this?   

[Adler 1]

Thanks for your replies gentlemen!

Eric, DB's helmet has a leather band with liner, o,ly the liner pins are missing...

Chris, That's exactly what we are trying to find out... what does this red stripe mean???

 

Adler 1

[Adler 1]

Meanwhile, after some more research...

1) My helmet:

- Model M17
- Maker: ET (Eisenhütenwerke Thale A.G.)
- Size 64
- Camoed twice, top layer in ocre, rust brown and green with narrow black deviding line
- Red horizontal stripe from lug to lug
- Ink stamp on inside of neck guard: AK and 64, which means the helmet has been refurbished.
- Pencil markings: Rogg 10/124: after some research, it appears the name of the wearer of the helmet was Adolf Rogg, born 8/4/1896 in Muthmannshofen, Kempten, Bayern, served in 10th Company of Infanterie Regt 124 Wurttemberg, had minor injuries.

2) Doug's helmet:

- This helmet was brought home by the vet who picked it up in Peronne France on September 1st 1918
- Model M16
- Maker: NJ (Vereinigte Deutsche Nickelwerke, Schwerte i/Westf.)
- Size 62
- Camoed twice, top layer in ocre, rust brown and green with narrow black deviding line
- Red horizontal stripe from lug to lug
- Pencil markings: Peronne France Sept 1 1918 and the soldiers name a few times. Since I can't read this old German style very good, I think the name is something like W. Marquardt... I found the name of this soldier in the same listing as Adolf Rogg... It would be Wilhelm Marquardt, born 15/6/1899 in Legelshurst, Kehl, served in 2nd Company of Infanterie Regt. 124 Wurttemberg, missing in action.



3) Other facts:

- IR124 was stationed in Peronne France from 25 until 31 July and stayed in that area untill end of the war
- Canadian soldiers were in the Peronne area on sept 1st 1918



What can we conclude so far?

- Both soldiers served in IR 124 Wurttemberg, so we can rule out the Austrian theory.
- Looking at the colors of the second layer of camo paint, both helmets having the same narrow black deviding lines, can indicate that both helmets were painted by the same hand.
- the most logical possibility for that red stripe is a distinct marking and not only used in 10th Company of IR124 since the wearer of Doug's helmet has served in 2nd Company. This isn't a real conclusion actually, but for now the only logical one...

The search continues!

Adler

[Hoss]

Karel with all due respect the 'by the same hand' is old wives bunkum so is a collectors ideal of an individual soldier painting his own helmet. This nonsense has been spread for decades by TR collectors who like to jack up stories and make their pieces 'one offs'. WW1 camouflaging was carried out by work groups.

No, what we have here are two or more helmets repainted in repair workshops imo the red 'line' was applied later for whatever reason yet to be determined. This red paint may have been applied by one, two or few individuals, granted but not the camouflage.

Regards

[Chris Boonzaier]

 

No, what we have here are two or more helmets repainted in repair workshops imo the red 'line' was applied later for whatever reason yet to be determined. This red paint may have been applied by one, two or few individuals, granted but not the camouflage.

Regards

I dont know.... when the order came down to Camoflage Helmets I think it more probable that they were painted at Company Level, which would probably be the lowest unit level with their own workshop, It would keep the transporting of equipment backwards and forwards to a minimum. So technically, if you have 2-3 guys doing helmets for the company, it is very possible that we have helmets done by the same hand.

It would of course be counter productive to have individual soldiers paint their helmets.. "Uniform" being the order of the day...

[Adler 1]

Sorry Eric, I think you're mistakin on this one... Not all helmets went to repairshops and the painting was doen mostly "in the field"... Here's a well known picture of soldiers that have just painted their helmets... You can see clearly that the men all are wearing thier fatigue outfits and they show of proudly their just painted helmets. Also in this picture it appears like the painting was done by only a few men of the unit...

Adler 1

[Hoss]

Hello

I know about all that and appreciate what you say but basically the 'field' camouflage tends to be of course less neat and precise, thicker and very often mixed with dirt. Following a theme case in point the pictures you show. But I don't see that in these two helms from the photos I see a standard camo 'type' but none of this is helping to explain the red stripes, sorry. Thoughts: red is pretty much useless in the dark and Germans tended to rec. mark the rear or side of a helmet if at all imo. Further I don't follow the oft quoted '18 Ludendorff directive 'picked' and plonked in books it's too literal for me.

Karel maybe one day you'll have a eureka moment  the joy of a hobby!

Eric

[The Prussian]

Hello!

My thought is, that those stripes were used to distinguish between different bataillons of a regiment, OR between regiments with the same number (Reserve and Landwehr) There was no Res.Rgt.124, but maybe the Inf.Rgt.124 and the Ldw.Rgt-124 fought omne battle? One might check it, but not at 3h45am...

Another possibility is, they were used in a training camp to distinguish between "Blueland" and "Redland" (so we called it in my military time). White bands were used in manouvres too.

 

Edited September 10, 2015 by The Prussian

[Hoss]

Andy you maybe onto something re maneuver/training etc here's a US range ordnance officers helmet, wrong army but food for thought.

Eric

 

Edited September 10, 2015 by Hoss

[Adler 1]

Range officer is also one of the possibilities and meanwhile other people also suggested T-Gewehr team, team leader, etc... I really appreciate your help guys, but the only thing missing is some evidence... but I'm patient and maybe some day we'll know exactly what this red stripe means...

About the camo we can discuss for days if we want, but at the end these two helmets are very simular and we'll never know exactly who painted them, but that's of course not so important now ...

Regarding maneuvres, I think they had enough going on in 1918 so I suppose they didn't do a lot of maneuvres anymore... Also, why wouldn't they just use a removable band as they did already for years and further on until WW2 they also used removable bands?

 

Adler 1

[Hoss]

Karel you'll note a digital copy on the 124th in the Württemberg State Library 1921 on the page you post, I have a download copy in my files. Also Péronne was occupied by the 5th Australian Division by the 3rd September as part of the second battle of Bapaume or Second Battle of the Somme. It appears to me the German division ended up in reserve north of Verdun? As an interesting side note another interesting download 'freebie' is Battle and Engagements of the British Armies in France and Flanders 1914-18 1924..

Sorry none helps in your 'red band' quest, of note you may have to consider from when they were painted a second time. imo.and be dispassionate re the soldier name, just a thought.

Eric