Chris Boonzaier Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 A nice little Gem that slipped through unnoticed by the world on Ebay... :-)
Naxos Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) I have my doubts about this tag to be a Flammenwerfer dog-tag Edited December 31, 2015 by Naxos
Naxos Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) : According to the records, a Rudolf Hertzberg from Polzin in Pommern was born in March 1887 and died on January 11, 1915 in Posen (Poznan) I think the G.R.P.R. was created more then year later. Edited January 1, 2016 by Naxos
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 1, 2016 Author Posted January 1, 2016 Hi, First off, I am always happy when a piece generates discussion, and I think scarcer pieces should always do that. ... so , a bit of Brainstorming.... I had seen that that a Rudolf Hertzberg died, but on neither of the entries is a birth date mentioned? My thoughts on the tag- - The tag is old, as is the stamping, comparing it to uncleaned other tags from the period there are no red or even orange lights. If this was to a regular infantry unit noone would question the originality based on the disk itself. - From what I see, there was indeed a Rudolf Polzin who died in January 1915, but without a birth date? - Polzin had 5 500 inhabitants during the war. Germany was (and still is to a degree) a country without much population movement. Even today in the village I live in there are older people who are proud never to have been more than 50KM from the vilalge. So if a Rollcall in a Town Hall in the US would Be "Macmalley? Chen? Risottario? Gudmunsen? Heidenreich? Zapatista?" in the village I live in (coincidently 5 500 inhabitants this year) it would be "Reinhardt? Seitz? Boonzaier? Schmidt? Reinhardt? Seitz?" ... just the small town demographics makes the name selection much less varied, and in most villages there seem to be 2-3 family names that are very comman... By us it is Reinhardt, Seitz, Hartlaub and Fecher.... 3km away in the next village about 10% of the people are called "Zahn"... With Reinhardt and Seitz in our town there are sometimes 3-4 men with the same family name. -My town had about 1 500 inhabitants just before the war, but already on the very first page of ancestry I find 4 First and Family name combinations that are the same, i.e. 8 soldiers, 4 names. - I think taking the tag itself into account, and question of how likely it is that someone making a copy would go through Verlustlisten and choose someone who had nothing to do with the regiment, and who was in fact killed before the Regiment existed.... the question is... Is it likely that for some bizarre reason a faker took this name, when it is so much easier to take one off the list of KIA Flammenwerfer men.... or is it more likely that there were 2 Rudolfs? - another point, the seller had about 10 tags for sale, all very bog stansard stuff, and he sold more in the past. He seems not too up on what he is selling, a few months ago "R.I.R. 53" listed as "reiter Infanterie regiment" etc. This was listed with no mention of FW. So langer rede, kurze sinn... I think it likely and probable and maybe even certain that there were more than 2 Rudolfs in Polzin. And althouh it may seem as if I am trying to shout down all arguments againt, i would be very pleased to hear all thoughts! :-)
Naxos Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 Chris, the birth date is mentioned for Rudolf Hertzberg and only one family by the name of Hertzberg lived in Polzin at the time. http://www.geni.com/people/Rudolf-Hertzberg/6000000025261532377
Naxos Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) Rudolf Hertzberg was born on March 1st, 1887 in Polzin as the 8th child of Leo Hertzberg of Polzin. (The only family by the name of Hertzberg living in Polzin) Schütze Rudolf Hertzberg served with the 3rd Kompanie of Garde-Reserve-Schützen-Bataillon. He was severly wounded in December 1914 and died in the Haupt-Festungs-Lazarett in Posen on January 11, 1915. http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2013/garde-res-schue-btl_A-L.html IMO, the faker got the name from the wrong Verlustliste. I Edited January 1, 2016 by Naxos
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 1, 2016 Author Posted January 1, 2016 Hi, I hear you, but am not convinved. The geni.com concentrates on one wing of the Herzberg family. As I have found with my own family research, the entries online are usually from one person following his branch back in time, and ignoring the branches of Uncles, etc. etc. There could be 2-3 other branches of the family in the area, The information in Geni is not the official record, but just what a single family researcher in Estonia has entered into the computer. The birth dates, although close are also not the same. I agree that it is an irritating similarity that I am going to try to clear up, but I am not ready to discount the tag. (an i know that makes me sound desperate, but i have seen too many anamolies in the hobby to begin to doubt). I will try and contact the city and have the birth register checked, I saw there was a office on a web page. There are so many things I like on this... Even little things like halfway through HERTZBERG he had stamped HERZ, then corrected it with a T. Best Chris As we can see, Gene looses trace of the grandfathers Carl Viktor Bogislav Hertzberg brother and his wing of the family, the further back you click the more you see is missing.
Naxos Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 I'm not trying to convince you Chris However, if you check the address book of Polzin - there are no other Hertzberg living there.
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 1, 2016 Author Posted January 1, 2016 Hi, Indded... I saw that. I am always of the opinion that pieces that may have an issue should be hounded until the truth is there, good or bad... and have been in the frustrating position when someone to too much of a zealot to realise that what he has is not good... so I know where you are coming from and I am really, really open to argument and will take all this into account. But i think the best way is to contact a researcher in the area. We know facts that are online, but cannot be sure what is not online. If there is a Rudolf II he could have moved there in 1904 from the neighbouring village. We are talking about a village in Modern day Poland... and I have to ask the question, how much information about that era is online? and for the bit that is, how many holes are in it? Leo's father and Grandfather and great uncles etc were all from Pommern... where were they living? How many kids did they have? if Leos Brothers kid moved there in 1910.. etc etc... they are questions i need to ask, without becoming one of those collectors who lives on vain hope :-)
Naxos Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) Chris, I saw this tag on eBay.de - I did the research last week and decided not to bid on it Surname: Hertzberg Given Name: Rudolf Sex: M Birth: 1 Mar 1887 Death: 11 Jan 1915 in Lazarett in Posen Burial: Bad Polzin Edited January 1, 2016 by Naxos
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 1, 2016 Author Posted January 1, 2016 Hi, I am still happy with it, I will dedicate some serious time researching it. I really have trouble thinking someone decides to fake a tag, chooses a random name, one of a guy killed in 1915, mispells it, gets the birthdate wrong, from a small town in the obscure ass end of nowhere... and makes an otherwise perfect tag. There is enough there that makes me think that unlikely. Where would he have gotten the name, birthdate etc in the first place? If a researcher does not turn up anything, then I will bury it. If you find anything else, even negative, please post! Best Chris
Naxos Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 try to compare it to other tags from the same unit - here is one from the same company: http://bleuhorizon.canalblog.com/ Also Bob Lembke has his father's from G.R.P.R - compare with his as well
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 1, 2016 Author Posted January 1, 2016 Hi, The owner of the tags on Bleuhorizon is a good friend, I will ask him for some good scans. But comparing tags can only be used to prove an item is original (Fonts etc).... non matching is not a proof o not being original.... see the differences on these... and they came into the comapny at the same time!! almost matching, but very different...
Hoss Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 Chris The top tag looks cut and the cord holes drilled, I think they were punched out and the font is very unevenly stamped like a one off. imo
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 Hi, in light of the host of points raised i will be returning the tag.
dond Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 The flamethrower disk I used to own was unevenly stamped. Comparing the two I see some similarities in the fonts of the letters.
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 5, 2016 Author Posted January 5, 2016 Hi, It has similarities with the fonts on Jeremies one as well, but it is a piece I guess I will never feel good about. It is hard to believe that a faker would go to this much trouble, finding a name and town like this.... if he had "Peter Schmidt , Berlin" it would have been home free. All we need is for cousin also named Rudolf Hertzberg to have moved to Polzin in 1912, and already the whole things moves into the realm of "possible".... but is it likely? As soon as you get your head around the fact that a faker may have lifted a name off a grave or something, then the possible negatives outweigh the possible positives. I don't want to Black Skull this and man the last outpost defending the piece until death. I think it wiser to accept that the Possible Negatives are the most probable answer to the the question of originality.
Hoss Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 I doubt they cutout tags with metal shears, Don look at the patina on yours and the edge what I see looks fine. btw you can still come across the old die sets they don't make tools like they used to. Another thing one can do is check the gauge of the material or measure with a mic. A tag copy is a tank of gas or a grocery bill, course that's nothing to you high rollers, caviar and champagne dudes.
Naxos Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 (edited) A new offer on eBay by the same seller. Compare the letter and number fonts of the two tags - the same punch set was used Edited January 17, 2016 by Naxos
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 17, 2016 Author Posted January 17, 2016 I wonder what a FSP. ERS. ABT. is? Any possible future buyer of the Hertzberg tag will find this thread on google ;-)
Naxos Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 Fernsprech-Ersatz-Abteilung The guy is good but greedy - making to many fake tags
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 17, 2016 Author Posted January 17, 2016 duh! I should have got the Fernsprech part!
Chip Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 I bought such a Garde Res.Pion.Rgt. tag on a "buy it now" from a Polish seller. It looked great. I was warned by a EM collector that it was a fake. I was able to cancel the sale before it was sent. I think this seller is a re-seller. The tags are coming from Poland. Chip
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