Soviet Order of the Red Banner

[Gerd Becker]

This is the one, that started my fascination for Russian Orders and Medals.

A little summary to its history:

The Order of the Red Banner was instituted in August 1924. There was another version the Order of the Red Banner of the Russian Federation (institutet Sept. 1918), but it had a little differnt design and the Order of Red Banner replaced it in 1924.

First version of the ORB were on a screwback different than this shown example, which is the latest type (Type 4) on a five-sided suspension. These suspensions were usual since 1943. All Russian Orders had serial numbers scratched or stamped in the lower end of the backside and every order came with a little award booklet (you can see examples in Rick?s excellent thread) .

Up to June 1944 it was a pure Bravery award, but after that i was given for Long service(20 and 30 years) as well and lost a bit of its prestige, until it was replaced as a long service award in 1957 with the Long Service Medals.

The Order of the Red Banner was awarded to all ranks and further to ships and military units for:

- Especially significant feats in combat with an obvious risk of life

- Outstanding combat leadership of military units displaying special bravery and courage

- Special bravery and courage displayed in accomplishing special assignments

- Special courage and bravery displayed in support of the state security of the country and impenetrability of the state border of the USSR in situations involving risk of life.

- The success of military units and ships despite stubborn enemy restistance, for being victorious over the enemy despite heavy losses or unfortunate circumstances, or for inflicting heavy casualties on the enemy while undertaking a major combar operation

- In other conditions, the Order of the Red Banner can be awarded for especially significant achievements in training and also for feats accomplished on duty with a clear risk of life.

(Source: P. McDaniels, The Comprehensive Guide to Orders and Medals of the USSR)

It is made from sterling silver like all russian orders and some medals and hot baked red an white enamel. The banner says " Workers of the world unite"

Enjoy!

Gerd

Edited May 11, 2005 by Gerd

[Gerd Becker]

The scooped revers of the Order. The suspension is made of brass, later suspensions were made from steel and aluminium. Also stamped on the back is a "maker mark", which says Monetny Dvor, which literally translates with "mint".

[Gerd Becker]

Here you can see the serial number, which is scratched in the lower end of the order. There are numerous styles of engraving, and later engraving were made with a rotating tool.

[Guest Darrell]

Here's mine:

[Gerd Becker]

Nice one, Darrel. Its a Type 3 Variation 2, if you don?t already know that.

Thanks for posting.

Gerd

[Guest Rick Research]

Keeping track of documented (researched or noted in later Orders Books with exact dates) Soviet awards is one of my research interests. While WARTIME Soviet serial numbers are very often a complete mess, units with many awards going through boxes while a less active unit was slowly issuing lower numbers much later, as a general preliminary estimate, based on numbers known

369,473 is someplace about 1949/50 and so probably the 1944-57 period's initial long service award for 20 years. That may SOUND "boring," until you consider that somebody who had a CAREER for 20+ years offers substantial reserch potential.

214,306 MIGHT be at the upper range (which I have not been able to determine, after 199,XXX as highest currently known to me) of the initial 3 November 1944 "20+ years" original long service batch of roughly 100,000 Same Day ORB awards. Those are VERY interesting because they were given to "... or more" and were then followed in the first mass long service batch of Orders of Lenin in February 1945 for the "25 years and up."

[Gerd Becker]

I will research this one, but only next month, Rick. I am much too curious to know, who it got and for what (probably a Long Service award, but like you said, there is a lot of potential in 20 years service)

I can?t await to get the group from Dave to see, how such a reasearch looks like.

Gerd

[Guest Rick Research]

Here is a recipient-converted screwback, updated to comply with the 1943 design regulations. From the front, this one is absolutely indistinguishale from the later pieces.

Rather unusually, this one has been repaired with hot enamel (chipped part outlined in yellow) and not the recent cold plastic-goop-- suggesting the recipient REALLY wanted to take care of this award, and it was done long ago.

The original screwpost has been so carefully removed, it is only possible to see traces under high magnification. There is not actually any "gold" color in the back-- that is scanner "flash" off the metal. A thin key-wedge was ever so carefully cut into the back to attach the gilt ring.

[Guest Rick Research]

I circled the plow blade on that one because the original screwbacks all had "big" points there, which carried over into the early 1943 types-- I suspect the dies were altered. Later suspension Red Banners have a much smaller tip there which does not touch.

A screwback in original condition. I had this researched-- watch "Line 11" when your papers come in, Gerd! That's where anyone who had ever been captured, behind enemy lines, or out of Soviet control had to report that-- so they could be arrested more easily. My recipient actually escaped on his own from being overrun, and having served as a company commander the rest of the war, was NOT shipped to the gulag-- but his regular officer career was over. I'll get into all that if I do a write up on him. Just want to show the type Red Banner here.

[Gerd Becker]

Wonderful ORB?s Rick. The screwback is still in very good condition and i can?t await to hear more about the story. The Suspension ORB has mucho charakter. Did you think about to research that one too?

And thanks for the advices.

Gerd

[Chris S]

Rick

Your converted piece is known as a dovetail, it was converted at the mint, approx only 4k of these were so converted from the remaining stock of screwbacks when the regulations changed.

See my attachment...it is identical and in the same number range....and you will be please to know I saw one sell recently for 1k US.

chris

Edited August 10, 2005 by Chris S

[Gerd Becker]

Rick

Your converted piece is known as a dovetail, it was converted at the mint, approx only 4k of these were so converted from the remaining stock of screwbacks when the regulations changed.

See my attachment...it is identical and in the same number range....and you will be please to know I saw one sell recently for 1k US.

chris

←

Hi Chris and welcome,

we already found out, but thanks for adding it to this thread. Lowest observed s/n for the "swallow-tail" or "dove-tail"-variation is 79.826 and highest observed is 84.146. I have also seen the one selling for about 1k, unbelievable. I would love to own one of them

Gerd

[Chris S]

Thanks Gerd

Chris

[Guest Rick Research]

Won't be long (if not already) for the dovetails to be faked, then, like the False Rivets Red Stars.

Mine came in trade 10 years ago pre-reference books when it was considered a DEFECT and not an exciting variant!!!!!

[Alfred]

Won't be long (if not already) for the dovetails to be faked, then, like the False Rivets Red Stars.

Mine came in trade 10 years ago pre-reference books when it was considered a DEFECT and not an exciting variant!!!!!? ? ? ? ?

←

Rick,

If I remember right they allready have started to fake the dovetails. I think,

in another forum they have posted a faked dovetail.

Unfaked soviet awards are getting rare.

regards

Andreas

Edited August 11, 2005 by Alfred

[Chris S]

A nice early issue...when it was the Russian Federation...ironically as it is now...

[Chris S]

The back............

[Chris S]

and its screwback plates..........

[Gerd Becker]

That is a fantastic piece, Chris.

Are these pre-war Red-Banners researchable?

Thanks for sharing

Gerd

[Guest Rick Research]

The closest I've ever come to one of these is a personnel file photo of a recipient.

ARE these researchable? Certainly at the priice they are going for, it would be worth it to do!

[Gerd Becker]

Hi everyone,

i have these two Orders of the Red-Banner Type 4 and i have noticed differences in shape and mintmark and a few other details. Weren?t they all made at the Moscow Mint? Doesn?t the left one look more like a Type 3 Variation 4?

Every comment is welcome.

Thanks in advance

Gerd

[Guest Rick Research]

There had to have been different dies-- they can not have stamped EVERY Red Banner out of ONE die. Also, like the Leningrad and Moscow Mint marked Orders of Lenin, there may well have been simply BOTH cities' mints making these. (?)

Here's a case in point from after the siege of Leningrad. Artillery Technical Colonel Maguta got these TWO "initial award" Red Banners four days and three numbers apart.

On the left is # 125,289 which was bestowed on him 7 November 1944 for all his work during the siege.

On the left is # 125,292 which had previously been awarded to him as a 3 November 1944 20+ years long service award.

Obviously somebody simply reached into a box, took out whatever came to hand, and he got a higher-- but almost consecutive (!!!) number earlier. These are both the "large plow blade" type with reverses as found on screw backs, only with the old screwback type dies (both different from each other) permanently altered to have suspension loops. Same place of issue, same box of awards-- two dies.

Notice the 2 lightly struck an "bottom at 10 o'clock" tiny letters " Д " on the 3.11.44 ORB # 125, 292, in the center where a screwback would have covered them.

Those are NOT "dublikat" indicators, which should be facing neatly upright and are generally found on LATER, not contemporary pieces, but appear to be the inexplicable but not unknown "worker" marks sometimes found on Soviet Orders, perhaps indicating piecework.

[Gerd Becker]

Excellent explanation, thanks, Rick.

That Red-Banner with workers mark is most interesting

You have some real nice Variations, my friend

[Alfred]

There are three variants of the fourth type:

T 4 V 1: moscow mint; produced ~ 1951 / 52

s/n range 357.215 - 363.666

s/n range 381.214 - 400.192

T 4 V 2: moscow mint; produced ~ 1953 / 1955

s/n range 401.803 - 422.311

s/n range 444.446 - 448.888

T 4 V 3: leningrad mint produced ~ 1954 / 1957

s/n range 364.900 - 379.504

s/n range 423.629 - 442.636

s/n range 450.253 - 564.937

Maybe we can find a picture to each s/n range?

[Gerd Becker]

There are three variants of the fourth type:

T 4 V 1: moscow mint; produced ~ 1951 / 52

s/n range 357.215 - 363.666

s/n range 381.214 - 400.192

T 4 V 2: moscow mint; produced ~ 1953 / 1955

s/n range 401.803 - 422.311

s/n range 444.446 - 448.888

T 4 V 3: leningrad mint produced ~ 1954 / 1957

s/n range 364.900 - 379.504

s/n range 423.629 - 442.636

s/n range 450.253 - 564.937

Maybe we can find a picture to each s/n range?

←

Thanks, Andreas. So mine are obviously one T4V2 and the other is a T4V3, procuded at different mints.

Can i use that for my website?

Thanks again

Gerd

Edited August 26, 2005 by Gerd Becker