Seeking Info on Kriegsmarine 1944 EK.2

[dpast32]

  Hello Folks,   I've been attempting to learn a little about an EK.2 Award I've recently acquired, but it's proving to be a bit more difficult than I originally anticipated. What I'm looking for right now, is to determine just who authorized & signed the award certificate. I have an idea as to who it may be, but as German awards are not my true specialty, I'd really prefer to have some assistance from an area 'expert'. My current question is; Does anyone have a copy of  Rudolf Jesper Petersen's circa 1944 signature ? ( RE:  Kapitän zur See & FdS = Führer de Schnellbootflottille ) My EK.2's document has what I think may be Petersen's signature, but unless I obtain independent confirmation, I'll never really be sure. Also, I've pasted a copy of a query I recently posted to one of the Forums I belong to for all here to view. I should provide a brief overview of the EK.2 I'm trying to document. So, if anyone thinks they may be able to assist me in this matter, I will be most deeply appreciative. THANK YOU

                        Best,      dpast32         ( dpast32@aol.com )

 

@@ >>> Please see attached query;

RE:    Seeking Meaning of Possible Unit Designation on KM EK II Award Document

Hello Folks, I can really use some help on this one !! I'm attempting to decipher the meaning of a term that's listed on an Iron Cross 2nd Class Award Document, but haven't been able make any sense of it ? Pretty much all of the EK Document's I've examined in the past tended to list the recipient's unit designation in normal German military terms & abbreviations. This particular example has all the normal information, but instead of a unit designation, it lists; " O.144661/41T ". I'm fairly certain that it refers to the man's former or present unit, but this is a new one for me ? Perhaps one of our Kriegsmarine scholars will be able to decipher this term for me ? The 'other' noted data includes; the recipient's name, rank, date of award, or date of act, & the authorizing authority. The data is as follows; Maschinenobergefreiter HEBERT GOBEL, 28 Juni 1944, Kapitän zur See, Führer der Schnellboote, along with a cursive signature. I'm sure that this EK II had an interesting story behind it, as we all know that the KM's E-Boats ( or S Boots ) were extremely active trying to disrupt the Allied Beachead operations during the post D-Day landings. But, for all I know at the moment, this man's unit may have been in the east, in the Baltic Sea area. Anyhow, it will be interesting to find out. I anyone thinks they may be able to assist me in decipher this unusual designation, I'll be deeply appreciative for their kind input. THANK YOU

 

 

 

 

 

[hucks216]

This is an example of his signature that I have on file.

 

[dpast32]

THANK YOU ever so much 'hucks216' !!!  Your example is an exact duplicate of of mine. After checking around a bit, I kind of had an idea that it was Petersen's signature, but at least now I'm certain of of it. Now, I have to determine exactly what Petersen's duties were during the period of when the document was dated, which was 28 Juni 1944. IIRC, I think that I've read that Petersen was in command of the 9th Schnellboote Flottila around this time, but I still need to confirm this fact. If he was, perhaps there's a chance that this EK.2 might have been awarded for the Lyme Bay attack on 27 April 1944 ? Or, just maybe it had been awarded for an action on D-Day, or shortly thereafter ? In any event, it's starting to get a bit interesting. As I said before, German awards were never my specialty, but during my many years of collection medals & decorations, I just haven't come across a great many Kriegsmarine decorations, especially to Schnellbootte personnel. I THANK YOU again for your extremely helpful reply, & will keep everyone updated on my research progress.

        Best regards,     Dom Pastore Jr.    ( dpast32@aol.com )

[hucks216]

From April 1942 to the end of the war Rudolf Petersen was Führer der Schnellboote. From April 1943 to war's end the commanding officer of 9.Schnellbootsflottille was Götz Freiherr von Mirbach.

 

Chances are that the EK was won for one of the many actions carried out by the flotilla against the Allied ships off of the coast of Normandy during June 1944. See here for a comprehensive coverage of those operations:

English Channel 1944

Edited January 7, 2017 by hucks216

[GreyC]

Hi,

this is my first post in this forum. So forgive me if not all is according to protocol.

The Führer der Schnellboote (FdS) succeeded the Führer der Torpedoboote on the 20th  April 1942 as head of the Schnellbootsflottillen which usually consisted of 8 boats plus a tender. Rudolf Petersen was FdS from start to finish.

The command-post of the FdS was usually situated at Scheveningen, but due to operative necesseties he also operated out of Boulogne/Wimereux, Cherbourg and during the invasion out of  Le Havre, Ostende-De Haag and Den Helder. In the winter of 1944/45 the command post was moved to Sengwarden close to Wilhelmshaven. At the end of the war it was in Flensburg.

The 9th Schnellbootsflottille was deployed 1st April 1943 and operated entirly out of Den Hoofden and in the Channel during the war. As stated above K. Kpt. Freiherr v. Mirbach was the Kommandant.

All infos out of  Schnellboote im Einsatz 1939-1945 by Volkmar Kühn, Stuttgart 1976. p210, 215.

GreyC

Edited January 7, 2017 by GreyC

[hucks216]

By the end of May 1944 9.Schnellbootflottille was stationed at Cherbourg before returning to Hoofden by 1945.

Edited January 7, 2017 by hucks216

[dpast32]

Hello Guys,  I had mentioned the 9th Flotilla, because I recalled reading something about Petersen & the 9th, and thereby associated the two in my mind. The EK.2 recipient, Maschinenobergefreiter Herbert GOBEL, # O.144661/41T may or may not have ever been assigned to them. At this point, all I can deduce is that this award was 'probably' earned sometime between April & early June of 1944. If only the KM had followed the Heer format of listing the assigned unit on the certificate ! That's not the case here, so I just have to keep digging. Unless I get really lucky & turn up his name on an S-Boat personnel roster, or perhaps an awards list or some similar document, my chances or fully documenting this award is very slim indeed. I truly THANK everyone for their kind replies, as they were most appreciated. PLEASE don't hesitate to post if anyone thinks they may have some data that might assist me.

             Best,    Dom Pastore Jr.

 

 

 

  

[GreyC]

Hi hucks216,

thank you for the additional info on the 9th.

GreyC

[dpast32]

Good Morning Gentlemen,  I neglected to post this the other day, but figured that perhaps I should just for future reference purposes. This is a scan of Kriegsmarine Sailor, Service # O.144661/41T, Maschinenobergefreiter Herbert GOBEL's Iron Cross, 2nd Class (EK.2) Certificate. Although I've managed to learn a few key facts concerning this award, I'm still going to continue along trying to determine the exact action for which he was decorated for. Hopefully, sooner or later I'll manage to narrow down the list of S-Boat units that he may have been assigned to within the specific time frame when the EK.2 document was dated. And BTW, I truly appreciate all the very kind assistance I've recieved to my queries. THANKS

                          Best,    Dom Pastore Jr.    ( dpast32@aol.com )

 

 

 

[hucks216]

Look in the top left corner of the EK citation - that could well be his E-Boat (S-188). While the KM didn't always type the man's unit like the Heer did, they did often write the unit in the top corner in pencil.

 

Taken from the link I posted previously (I've put in bold & underlined the two relevant parts, i.e. the date and the boat mentioned)...

 

During the night 09./10.06.1944 the boats had the same orders. The 5. and the 9. SFltl, however, were stuck in an escort circle off Cape Barfleur, while the 4. SFltl could lay mines on the convoy route and was involved in fights with destroyers. "S 188" reported a toprdo hit on a ferry of 5000 BRT. "S 172" and "S 187" reported hits on two freighters of 2000 BRT each. "S 190" and "S 180" transfered from Vlissingen to Boulogne with the 8. SFltl. In so doing "S 190" took a mine hit, which caused no harm to her personnel and no leakage. But the boat had to be docked, that is why the unit went to Rotterdam. The 2. SFltl reported the sinking of two freighters of  900 and 1500 BRT respectively and entered the harbour of  Le Havre.

 

S-188 was sunk on 14th June 1944 in Le Havre...

During the night 13./14.06.1944 the boats were again to attack the landing fleet, the 5. and the 9. SFltl were to sail to Cherbourg afterwards because of the concentration of boats on Le Havre. Wind from northwest with force seven forced the boats of the 4., 5., and 9. SFltl to call off the operation and to return to Le Havre. The radio traffic was intercepted and decifered and the Allied attacked the boats in the evening of the 14.06.1944 by 221 Lancaster-bombera escorted by fighters and Mosquitos. 14 S-boats ("S 84", "S 100",  "S 138", "S 142", "S 143", "S 144", "S 146", "S 150", "S 169", "S 171", "S 172", "S 173", "S 187", "S 188")  and three of the four torpedoboats in harbour were sunk, only "S 167" escaped by leaving harbour.

 

He could of got the EK II for a single act or more likely for a combination of missions and surviving the sinking. EK's weren't just awarded for acts of bravery. They could also be awarded as a percentage, i.e. such & such unit is to award 10% of their men with an EK II and 2% with an EK I.

Edited January 11, 2017 by hucks216

[dpast32]

Yet again hucks216, I send you a great big THANK YOU for your continued assistance, I truly appreciate it ! Now that you've pointed out the pencil notation to me, I recall that I've come across this before with many U.S. WW2 era decorations. I assume this was done by the presenting Officer(s) to make sure that the right man received the correct award document. As I'm sure you know, once you determine the recipient's assigned unit or boat, it just becomes so much easier to track the guy down. I'm not too well versed with German unit histories, but a great many allied unit pub's tend to include personnel & decoration rosters within them. I do recall that you had stated earlier that Gobel's award was probably earned for an action or actions off of Normandy during June of 1944 ! It appears as if it's all starting to fall into place, well hopefully anyway ? I have encountered one sad fact though, it's that there don't appear to be many ( if any ? ) S-Boat history texts available in English. I did run across a Squadron - Signal edition on S-Boats, but you know how they usually are, heavy on photos & very limited in text. THANKS again hucks216, & PLEASE feel free to keep the data coming !!

                        Best,     Dom

[hucks216]

Try getting hold of a copy of Schnellboote by Lawrence Paterson. It's on Amazon and is in English. But to be honest, the website I posted a link to earlier goes into more depth than any book on the subject I know.

S-188 belonged to 4.Schnellbooteflottille.

 

Edited January 11, 2017 by hucks216

[dpast32]

Hello Gentlemen,  I just received an online reply from my query regarding Herbert Gobel, the WW2 Schnellboot crewman I initially inquired about here on the GMIC recently. From what little German I can understand, this E-mail appears to be a negative reply regarding information about Gobel. However, it anyone would be so kind as to PLEASE translate this for me I'd be most appreciative. We all know how it is when contacting the various branches of the German Archives. Sometimes you strike gold, but most times you strike out. As always though, I will attempt to continue the search ! The complete text of the E-mail is pated below, THANK YOU

            Best regards,  dpast32        ( dpast32@aol.com )

 

>>> Anfrage nach einem ehemaligen Angehörigen der Kriegsmarine; Vorg. II D 30 - 17/5 

Sehr geehrter Herr Pastore,

 

Ihre Anfrage vom 12.11.2016 an den Suchdienst des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes in München wurde zuständigkeitshalber an die Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) weitergeleitet.

 

Ich habe bereits Ermittlungen nach dem ehemaligen Angehörigen der Kriegsmarine

 

Herbert Göbel

 

und seinen Angehörigen aufgenommen, die aber auf Grund des hohen internen und externen Aufwandes längere Zeit in Anspruch nehmen werden.

 

Sie erhalten dann unaufgefordert Nachricht von mir über das Ergebnis.

 

Ich hoffe, Sie haben Verständnis dafür.

 

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Im Auftrag

 

Elvira Gerhardt

 

Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt)

II D 30 - Frau Gerhardt

Eichborndamm 179

13403 Berlin

Tel.: +49 30 41904-242

Fax: +49 30 41904-100

Kein Empfang elektronisch signierter E-Mails!

Sehr geehrter Herr Pastore,

Ihre Anfrage vom 12.11.2016 an den Suchdienst des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes in 
München wurde zuständigkeitshalber an die Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt) 
weitergeleitet.

Ich habe bereits Ermittlungen nach dem ehemaligen Angehörigen der 
Kriegsmarine

Herbert Göbel

und seinen Angehörigen aufgenommen, die aber auf Grund des hohen internen 
und externen Aufwandes längere Zeit in Anspruch nehmen werden.

Sie erhalten dann unaufgefordert Nachricht von mir über das Ergebnis.

Ich hoffe, Sie haben Verständnis dafür.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Im Auftrag

Elvira Gerhardt

Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt)
II D 30 - Frau Gerhardt
Eichborndamm 179
13403 Berlin
Tel.: +49 30 41904-242
Fax: +49 30 41904-100
Kein Empfang elektronisch signierter E-Mails!

>>> END of Reply

 

THANKS AGAIN, As always, I really do appreciate any & all replies to my queries !!

Edited February 15, 2017 by dpast32

[GreyC]

Hi,

they tell you that your query was redirected from the Red Cross to the WAST (Wehrmachts-Auskunft-Stelle).

They started research on it, but as it takes time no news yet. if they find anythink, they´ll contact you again.

Best,

GreyC

Edited February 15, 2017 by GreyC

[dpast32]

THANK YOU GreyC, I really do appreciate your kind assistance. Hey, you never know, just maybe the'll dig something up ? I'll report the results, if & when they arrive.

      Best,     dpast32

[GreyC]

From my experiene it can take up to 6 months, but you should hear from them in any case.

GreyC

[dpast32]

Hello GreyC,  Believe it not, I just received a reply to the WASt query you so kindly translated for me yesterday. If you would be so kind to translate this new reply for me, I'd be again, most deeply appreciative ! THANK YOU

                       Best,   Dom Pastore Jr.      ( dpast32@aol.com )

RE:  >>>     

 

SUBJECT:  Anfrage nach einem ehemaligen Angehörigen der Kriegsmarine; Vorg. II D 30 - 17/5 

FROM: gerhardt, elvira elvira.gerhardt@dd-wast.de
DATE:  16 February 2017

 

Sehr geehrter Herr Pastore,

 

im Nachgang zu meiner E-Mail vom 15.02.2017 kann ich Ihnen bereits heute mitteilen, dass ich die Tochter des ehemaligen Angehörigen der Kriegsmarine

 

Herbert Göbel

 

ermitteln konnte, der ich mit heutiger Post den Sachverhalt schildere und ihr für eine mögliche Kontaktaufnahme mit Ihnen Ihre Anschrift und E-Mail-Adresse angebe.

 

Herbert Göbel überlebte den Krieg und verstarb im Jahr 1993, seine Ehefrau im Jahr 2002.

 

Ich hoffe, Ihnen behilflich gewesen zu sein.

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Im Auftrag

 

Elvira Gerhardt

 

Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt)

II D 30 - Frau Gerhardt

Eichborndamm 179

13403 Berlin

Tel.: +49 30 41904-242

Fax: +49 30 41904-100

Kein Empfang elektronisch signierter E-Mails!

 

@ >>> END of Message

[GreyC]

Hi,

that was unusually quick for the WASt!

And the news are good.

Herbert Göbel survived the war and died 1993. His wife died in 2002. The lady from the agency also states that there not only is a surviving daughter, but that she contacted her and forwarded her your contact information. So if she is interested, she will contact you.

Congrats!

GreyC

[dpast32]

I THANK YOU yet again GreyC, I truly appreciate your continued assistance ! Just maybe Gobel's  daughter will decide to contact me & I may be able to learn some details as to his EK.2 award ? I'll keep you posted.

     Best,   Dom

[GreyC]

Hi,

I´ll keep my fingers crossed.

GreyC

[hucks216]

11 hours ago, dpast32 said:

......Just maybe Gobel's  daughter will decide to contact me & I may be able to learn some details as to his EK.2 award ?...

     Best,   Dom

Or she might ask/demand to have the citation returned to her.

[dpast32]

THANK YOU Gentlemen for all your continued interest, it's most appreciated. 1st, I thought too thatit was a bit unusual WASt replied so quickly, & they also neglected to include any military service information. That may have been due to the manner of my query, which primarily asked if he ( Gobel ) had survived the war, & if he was still alive, as I had a few 'items' named / identified to him. ( Yes I know, a somewhat bad approach on my part. ) I did however also ask if the had any military service data available, & I would be interested in whatever they may have available. ( I 'might' have made their search a bit easier by providing them with full name, service branch, service number, & ship served on. ) In all of my past contact with WASt, they always provided whatever service data available, no matter how trivial it might be. Why the didn't this time, who can really say ? I am E-Mailing my contact person again today, & specifically ask for any / all military data they may have. As for Gobel's daughter or family requesting return of the items I mentioned, I didn't actually mention anything specific. Unfortunately, I can't locate a copy of my initial query to them, but if I mentioned anything from the Gobel group, it would have been the EK.2 & perhaps the May 1941 photographs of Gobel aboard the Kriegsmarine Heavy Cruiser 'Prinz Eugen'. As far as any family member asking for anything to be returned, sure, I will be happy to forward a quality, color photocopy of his EK.2 document, along with quality reprints of the 3 Prinz Eugen photos. After being a collector & researcher for a great many years, I've encountered this scenario a few times before. I AM ALWAYS happy to provide the family with whatever data I can, barring of course the actual return of any valuable original item. I'm afraid that I keep collecting German documents, I'll have to really brush up on my German, & or perhaps there's a translation program that's set up primarily for people like us, German military & polizei collector / researchers ? Well, shortly I'll send off that E-Mail to WASt asking for any & all data pertaining to Goblel, & of course to thank them for their work on my behalf. ( This is the time where I really wish I could write German ! ) THANKS AGAIN Guys, at least I'm making some progress ! I do recall that this particular group was purchased off a German antique dealer, in Germany, back in 2015 or so. Please stay tuned for further updates,

          Best,   Dom

[GreyC]

Hi!

Not beeing supplied with data could have to do with him not beeing dead long enough for that. There is a ban on personal data of people to those not directly related to them (if I remember correctly) of 30 years if the person in question is not a significant figure in history.

GreyC

[dpast32]

Ok, I should have realized that fact ! We too have a similar rule in place here in the US at our primary US military records repository, The NPRC, in St. Louis, Missouri. Since Gobel's only been dead less than 23 or so years, you are probably correct in that assumption. Oh well, it seems like I'm always waiting for data from somewhere !! I guess it really can't hurt to ask for some specific data ? If I send them the info I already have, perhaps they might at least confirm my info ? ( Svc. #, branch, ship #, etc. ) I'm somewhat curious as to if he had a middle name, and or preferred to be referred to by then name Paul ? On all 3 of the Prinz Eugen photos, the reverse captions are all signed off by 'Paul' ? I was advised by the seller that the photos came with the group, & indeed belonged to the EK.2 recipient. But, the name 'Paul' on the reverse of the 3 photos is a bit disturbing to me. Again, only further research will solve that riddle. As with all of my groups, I would truly love to fully document this unusual little group. From what I've been able to discern, there don't appear to be an overabundance of EK awards to Schellboot crewmen, so this particular award just may be one of a limited number ? Stay tuned Folks,

                  Best,      Dom

[dpast32]

Hello Guy's,    Just a brief update of my progress here. I was advised by WASt just the other day that this EK.2 recipient & his wife have both passed away, although the daughter is still alive, & has been provided with my contact data in the event she wishes to contact me. Although I'm elated to have recieved any reply from WASt, & especially one so promptly, it wasn't the reply I was anticipating. I most of my dealings with them, they usually at the very least provided the person's unit(s) assignments, & sometimes the person's date of death, if applicable. I surmise that the manner in which I formed my query to them may have been the reason why I was given an answer that was more focused on contacting him or his family, as opposed to just seeking military data. I initially thought that perhaps there was a time period restriction regarding the release of personal information, but after reviewing some of my other files, I noted that the time factor probably wasn't the reason. ( RE: In 2004, I received a reply from WASt with military service data pertaining to a man who had passed away in 1986. ) So, what I decided to do was this; I compiled ALL the relevant data I had available on my search subject, & E-Mailed my contact person at WASt with what facts I knew. I advised that I would be happy to make contact with the family if they so desired, & mentioned to them (WASt) that perhaps the family might be interested in the information from the E-Mail too. I requested WASt to provide me with whatever data they had, or would, & at the very least would the please just confirm the information I had provided them. Well, that's where it stands at the moment. Perhaps I'll get a nice detailed reply, or maybe they will just choose to confirm or correct the data I forwarded ? Anyway it goes, at least will be more than I know right now. As usual, I'll keep everyone updated. THANKS

                       Best,   dpast32