Mongolia We should start asking more questions

[Vatjan]

I'm not saying that there are fakes on the market, there might be, I do not know.

But with the prices skyrocketing, I think we should, in some specific cases, start asking ourselves some questions.

Two recent exemples from our favourite auction site.

One group to the same person: 2 orders and a bunch of medals.

The Combat Service Order SN 2871, filled in by hand in the order booklet, awarded in 1977.

Now I know anything goes in Mongolia, but according to the existing listings the 2700 mark was reached in 1971, a year in which many many orders were given for the 50th anniv of the MPR. More over simple mathematics give an average of 140 CSO's a year, which would mean a SN in the 3000's.

So a handwritten entry together with a chronologically suspicious serial number.... we should be cautious

Careful, I'm not saying the dealer is bad, we've all done business with him and all have been pleased with his services, I think.

Edited April 4, 2006 by vatjan

[Vatjan]

Second a matching pair WeWon doc and medal.

I might be paranoid but aren't there traces of bleaching around the serial number's entry?

Doesn't the callligraphy seem different for the SN and the rest of the doc?

Edited April 4, 2006 by vatjan

[Ed_Haynes]

Jan is absolutely right. Thanks for posting these.

There may be some disturbing -- and unnecessary -- things going on.

Rarely do I consider a "group" to be much more than an asserted group. While we need to know much more about serial number date linkages, I, too, would view that "group" with some caution. Maybe no more than the sum of its parts (and a dubious award book?).

The "We Won" is more disturbing. The mismatch between a medal and its document is unfortunately familiar, but the steps that may have been taken here are a source of concern. Every "We Won" document I have seen has the number rendered as shown below, and what Jan shows is a cause for significant concern.

Sure, we have all seen documents on which the ink has run or where there are corrections, but those items earlier in this thread transcend these natural events. Untimately, these unnatural practices are simply not required and I hope those responsible cut it out!

[Stogieman]

Well, I would agree here, the "We Won" is highly suspect at best and it sure does look bleached. The oddball numbers, not so much of an issue as we do see that.... Take the Honored Employee Eggs as an example. It appears they were all made in one batch and awarded in no certain order for at least the next 40 years!

[Vatjan]

I would not take these oddball numbers so lightly, except for the Polar Star Orders, the serial number chronology is very consistent with Mongolian Orders.

As a side note I think one day, with more info available, we will find the answer for the OPS's in the mixing of T2's and T3. (I've just recently seen an Type 2 awarded in 1945, finishing the stock???)

These eggs maybe issued for 40 years onward, but I'm quite convinced they were issued chronologically

Just my 2 cents

Jan

[Stogieman]

I'm not sure I agree with that... we have a member who has posted a numbered badge awarded in 1973 that has a number that precedes a 1950's award of the same badge?

You run into the same issue with NKVD.... award numbers are not chronological. In fact, there wasn't even a consistent serial number range! Seemed to vary by maker maybe?? More on this as I explore that fact..

[Ed_Haynes]

While I think we are getting close, until we have a large sample size of legitimate numbered and dated certificates (strangely, the badges won't matter so much unless we have a varietal issue) I don't think we'll be able to make many supported assertions here, one way or the other. Yes, Jan is right, that we do have some preliminary evidence. But that's what it is, "preliminary". Somewhere I'd guess there is a thick ledger of all these numbered things, with number, date, and name, all in neat order. Gotta look for THAT.

[Dolf]

I might be paranoid but aren't there traces of bleaching around the serial number's entry?

Yes there are indeed, that is pretty obvious that the original # was somehow erased and replaced by the # matching this Medal. The reason for someone to do that? Obvious too, it sells for more money than the Medal alone!

Doesn't the callligraphy seem different for the SN and the rest of the doc?

Absolutely!

As it also looks different on the Doc for that Order of Combat Valor!

From the look of it I'm preetty convinced that entry isn't official and was later added with the intention of deceiving!

Awards, and S/Ns on awards are harder to fake, but that's pretty easy to do that on papers. At least an amateur job as on these. I guess a professional would have done a better job.

Dolf

Edited April 5, 2006 by Dolf

[Stogieman]

I think Dolf is right, someone has taken a step into "The Dark Side"....... lured by profits....

We saw the same thing with a fellow in Germany. Sold a big bunch of real ribbon bars that went for some pretty serious money...... next thing you know, he has an endless supply of items, all strikingly similar, all with subtle errors and problems that only an experienced collector will notice..... or at least a suspicious one. Currently, he's our biggest and most favorite fake peddler in Imperial.......

A slippery slope the Dark Side it is.......

[order_of_victory]

I know this is but woulderfull Smilie stogieman

Order of Victory

[Stogieman]

I took a look through his stuff last night. In one instance, he's selling an orders book that actually has the entered number and date crossed out and new details written in!