False and original pieces of the German army

[Stojan]

Hello, I have this badge of hand-to-hand combat, the seller assured me it is original, but I would like to know other opinions, I would appreciate someone telling me what you think.

Best regards.

[J Temple-West]

This is a fake....

Original close Combat clasps by F&BL (Funcke & Brüninghaus, Ludenscheid) has the maker mark above the clasp and is upside down.

[Stojan]

I have seen for sale in Germany this badge of the kriegsmarine, they gave it to the dwarf submarines etc ... in the period of 1944-1945.

What I would like to know is if the badge is from 1944-1945 or if it is from 1957, since many badges of this type were made in 1957.

It's from C.E Juncker

[J Temple-West]

Original wartime issued examples of these Small Battle Units War Badges are extremely rare and have certain characteristics which this one does not have... nor does it have the typical reverse setup (hinge/catch/pin) of a 1957 issued piece.  

 

 

 

[peter monahan]

Sadly, it was the case as long ago as the 1990s that a significant percentage of the 'WWII German' badges, particularly the rarer ones but even many common issues, were outright fakes, had been assembeled after the war from genuine parts or were in some other way 'not as advertised.'  I don't know nearly enough to guess what % of today's items fall into these categories but I would be very very careful were I to start collecting in this field.

Edited January 25, 2018 by peter monahan

[Stojan]

5 hours ago, J Temple-West said:

  The original examples issued during the war of these War Badges of the Small battle units are extremely rare and have certain characteristics that this one does not have ... nor does it have the option to return to the typical left (hinge / capture / pin) of a piece issued in 1957.

 

 

 

-So the badge is not from 1957 or from 1944-45?

Edited January 25, 2018 by Stojan

[J Temple-West]

Hi, Stojan

The difference between wartime pieces and those produced in 1957 is that the fins are not ribbed on those of the 1944 design.

The 1957 design, having ribbing on the fins, shows that the badge that you've posted is based on the 1957 design but has a maker mark for C.E Juncker.  The Juncker factory was destroyed in late 1944 which means that either this is a one-off piece produced in 1957 with a totally different reverse set-up to the those found on most 1957 badges and with a fake post-war maker mark for Juncker.

With all these red flags, I would have to give an opinion that this badge was produced to deceive.

As a point of interest, there has only been one documented original 1944 'Small Battle Units War Badges badge' sold on the open market and that was in 1998 by a dealer in Germany....this shows how rare they are.   

 

[speedytop]

Hi,

I don't understand the connection with: "made in 1957". It could be an original or a copy/reproduction/fake. If it is a copy, it could be made in 1953 or 1960. Such a piece have nothing to do with the 1957er decorations, if is meant that.

Uwe

Edited January 25, 2018 by speedytop

[J Temple-West]

Good morning, Uwe

As the badge in question is of the 1957 design, it would have to have been produced after 1957....when is any body's guess.

these 1957 type badges are still produced today and can be found for as little as £/E/$ 35.00 on auction sites.

Again, as a point of interest... the picture shown below is the only known original example of a Small Battle Units War Badge that came from the estate of Ottfried Neubecker, the designer of the award. As can be seen, the fins of the sawfish are smooth.

 

                                                            

 

compared to an example of a typical 1957 series piece.. As can be seen, the fins are ribbed.

(photo from an article by Gordon Williamson) 

 

[speedytop]

Hi John,

I don't understand that: "As the badge in question is of the 1957 design, ..."

This piece is not a 1957er decoration, and such copies had been made several years before the law from 1957 (and of course after 1957).

Uwe

 

[Bubba_Z]

Hi,

The Kleinkampfverbände clasp with Juncker maker's mark is quite common modern cast fake, so is the case. As John has already said there is only one example known that is thought to be an original sample piece and it comes from the designer of this clasp. It is the one posted by John. I enclose another image of the same sample piece. It was sold by several prominent dealers over the years. Last time it was offered by Lothar Hartung for 7800 eur in 2004.There is no evidence that any of these were manufactured before the end of the war.

Cheers,

Hubert

[Fafnesbane]

IMO the last clasp shown in this thread is original. And as far as I know, the only known. Very nice!