Fakes/copies of the bavarian Military Max Joseph-order

[Yankee]

37 minutes ago, 922F said:

Hi Yankee,

Yes, sadly the phaleristic enhancer’s or forger’s art is/was widespread and has been documented in 1890’s sales/auction catalogs and probably before.  Some copies may truly be replacements for original recipients' lost awards.  Others seem clearly made for more or less legitimate purposes, like the Imperial Haitian Order insignia made in the 1950’s by Bertrand to illustrate Major Francis Etienne’s book, Decorations haitiennes a travers l'histoire Port-au-Prince (1954), and the French Three Golden Fleeces examples.  Others….[1974] well do you really want that Berthold collar for 90,000DM?  

To my knowledge Rothe never put other than their marks [if any] on their ‘collector copy’ work.  This was done by 'job lotters' or individuals.  Tells include Rozet & Fischmeister’s name/logo engraved on Iron Crown reverse banderolls [aka lappets or infulae], something never seen on original R & F work which have the names in relief or raised letters.   Other give-aways include bungled letter, trapezoid & and star punches suggesting Meyer origin on Leopold or Maria Theresa badge ribbon loops.

However, Rothe certainly made copies of their work well into the 1960’s and early '70's at least.  Even as late as the late '80's they did special commission work, mainly on A-H orders but also Mexican Eagle badges, a couple of Italian States Orders and Bavarian Crown stars among others.  These were on display for sale in vitrines to the right of the shop entry door and in counter cases along with genuine items.   One could specify bronze-gilt or silver-gilt varities--not sure about gold.  

While the metal stamping work of those is often hard to differentiate from original work, the enamel work and enamel detail fall short of originals.  The very heavy crosshatching on Bavarian Crown star centers is a give-away for example…and whether Rothe ever was an official supplier of that order insignia remains an open topic.

Again to my understanding, Rothe did make 'replacement' and collector pieces through the '20's-'50's.  Maybe up to the early ‘60’s they might have put A-H or Austrian tax release stamps on these but they seem to have stopped applying tax stamps around that time. 

Someone one this forum mentioned that Rothe dies were sold –2007-14?  Possibly those now enjoy reuse?    

Hi 922F

i appreciate you explaining to me in detail the role of individuals who perform doing job lots.  So basically there just as complicit as the manufacturers themselves.  These are the ones who are putting the finishing touches in securing there sales to unsuspecting collectors. I never knew about the banderolls behind the Crown being possibly compromised. That is an excellent point you bring out if there raised or not. I feel too many plow right into the hobby without enough information and indirectly support or fuel the production of fakes.  I find it strange why the European Governments didn’t put them behind bars or punish them with stiff fines.  I read an article on the CWRS that two or maybe more British citizens had a machine created to having medals impressed just like the originals not even the experts could tell them apart. They went to jail and luckily for  collectors of British they were caught early in their scam.  Nice the Rothe dies are floating somewhere.  So let us hope they are being utilized as paper weights.....or fell into the hands of a good person who wants them secured.

[laurentius]

Dear fellow collectors

I was visiting some dealer's websites today, hoping I could find a nice bargain when I came accross this. It says it was made after 1918 but looking at the way the RAO-ribbon is attached on the back makes me think this might also be the handiwork of EB. What do you guys think?

Kind regards, Laurentius

[922F]

This may be either ex-Alexander Patterson collection which Paul describes above or of a piece with that example.  The serrated reverse center and clunky reverse ribbon attachments indicate that type work.   Another person [don’t recall the name but maybe a Bavarian] started as a sort of EB worker/collaborator  but graduated to making or enhancing their own product for a year or two in the mid-1970's.  This variety is somewhat cruder than those attributed to Ernst.  [Oak leaf reverse bent pin attachment may be a hint?]  D.R. Overall-Hatswell Collection had several of both types.   

Edited January 21, 2019 by 922F
spelchek

[paul wood]

I don't think it's uncle  Ernst. Not good enough quality. Maybe to quote painting auction catalogues." School of EB"

 

Paul